Why Do People Hate Calvinst?

TCassidy:
I can't speak for any other non-Calvinists than myself. I have studied your view and I find I don't believe it is taught by the Scriptures.

Calvinism is an explanation for the doctrine of Soteriology, but it is not the only Biblical one. I don't even think it is the right Biblical model. I don't think you are being anti-Biblical. I certainly don't think your opsition is heretical at all.

I know you think that you are being cute but you are actually quite patronizing. You have fallen into the mode of a few Calvinists. It is a kind of smugness that acts as if all really spiritual people will eventually come to accept your views. And if you haven't it is because you are either not spiritual enough or not studious enough.

 

DIng, Ding, Ding...we have a winner! Get that man a cigar!

 

This is the lamest excuse ever. Whenever a person disagrees with Calvinism, Calvinists always say we don't understand your doctrine. Baloney.

Calvinists teach that regeneration must precede faith. I could quote you many Calvinists who teach this (and have many times).

You cannot be regenerated and in your sins at the same time. You cannot be spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same moment. But if regeneration precedes faith then this must be the case. Even if it only takes you one minute to hear the gospel, believe it and be justified, for that one minute you are spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same moment.

But Calvinists go far beyond that. I have posted quotes by Calvinists that say an infant can be regenerated for years before they are old enough to understand the gospel and place faith in Jesus. So these persons would be spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same time for many years. Impossible.

Why don't you try explaining this?

 

And I notice that you have failed to respond to my posts as well. I will answer your questions.

Non-Calvinists do not believe natural man can merit salvation, that is not the question. Calvinism teaches that the natural man cannot have faith. Some Calvinists teach that natural man cannot do any good thing whatsoever. This is shown false many times in the scriptures. God said Cain could do well and would be accepted with God in Genesis chapter 4.

That natural man can have faith and belief is proved by John 20:31.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The scriptures teach you have to believe to have life (regeneration), but Calvinism teaches you have to have life (regeneration) to believe.

Man is depraved, man is wicked. But men can do some good.

Luke 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Here Jesus said that unsaved people (sinners) do good.

 

First of all, I don't debate the issue at all. I said this on my first post.

But I think your questions are what pollsters call push questions. Push questions are asked so that there is only one answer and it is the answer that a pollster is trying to achieve.

For an example you ask concerning total depravity:

No one here who does not hold to your understanding of soteriology believes that man is good enough on his own to go to heaven. The push questions answer is obviously, no. None of us are good enough to go to heaven. It is in the words of the hymn writer, "Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling." So your question is based on a false premise.

For another example you ask about irresistible grace:

The obvious answer is no. If a person is a Christian (not a generic, but a Biblical Christian) then, of course, they haven't resisted. But the real question is have their been people who are not saved who have resisted the call of God to salvation.

I am not going to argue these things with you. Just as I don't argue eschatology on here. God's people down thru the ages have disagreed about these issues and the minds on this board are not going to settle it.

 

Excellent post Tom. These questions lead to only one obvious answer, they are a fallacy. But these are the types of arguments Calvinists are taught. Unlike you, they cannot see how these questions are designed to give only one answer.

 

What you say the petals mean, and what they actually mean are not one in the same.

Of course man left to himself would never seek God, and there is nothing inherently within that warrants salvation. That is not the whole of the "T", however. Total Depravity teaches that "dead is dead", and men are spiritual corpses unable to respond to Christ without being regenerated prior to faith. That is false.

See first comment in regards to man. Again, God has placed the condition of faith on those that are His. That goes against the very definition of unconditional.

Non Sequitur. Christ's blood was shed once for all even though all will not apply it via faith.

Yet another TC definition apart from what it actually means. The "I" stands and falls on the other petals, meaning if God has unconditionally elected a spiritual corpse regenerating him, he cannot resist God's grace. The entire premise is false.

Surely you know the definition of perseverance as opposed to preservation?

 

I am not sure election always speaks of salvation. Judas was chosen, he was elect in the sense that he was chosen by Jesus to be one of the twelve disciples. But Jesus chose Judas because he knew he would not believe and that he would betray him.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Election is according to God's foreknowledge. Jesus chose eleven disciples because he knew they would believe, but he chose Judas because he knew he would not believe and would fulfill the scriptures.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Jesus chose Judas, Judas was elect in this sense. But he chose Judas because he knew from the beginning that Judas would betray him.

 

I believe the vast majority of men will be lost. But that is not the question, the question is, did Jesus die for only those who receive him as savior, or did he die for 100% of men?

2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

These persons are lost. How can you be teaching "damnable heresies" and not be lost? But Jesus bought them, he shed his blood to pay for their sins just like he did for everyone else.

 

The scriptures give an example of someone turning from God's grace, the young rich ruler.

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

This young man desired to be saved. He ran to Jesus and knelt down to him and addressed him with respect. Calvinism teaches that an unsaved person can do none of these things. He understood and obeyed much of scripture, also something Calvinism teaches it is impossible for the natural man to do. The scriptures say Jesus loved this unsaved man who turned away, Calvinism teaches that God hates unbelievers.

Jesus fully invited him to sell all his possessions and come follow him, but this fellow turned away in unbelief.

 

As Webdog pointed out, perserverance and preservation are very different things.

Why do you need to perservere? If you cannot get saved by doing good works, then why would you need to maintain good works to stay saved?

No, the scriptures teach we are kept by Jesus himself. We are not saved because we are faithful to him (we often aren't), we are saved because he is faithful to us.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Are you a man? Then if you have received Jesus he has given you eternal life and you cannot pluck yourself out of his hand.

 

You have learned the lesson of using semantics well.

If you think that what Calvinists believe about irresistible grace and what I believe, you are the one who misunderstands Calvinism.

This isn't my first rodeo and you may well be able to get this kind of "reasoning" across to your seminary students, but it doesn't work with someone, like me, who was taught about Calvinism by Dr. James Montgomery Boice of 10th Presbyterian Church and spent time with Founder's Ministry and Southern seminary people attempting to learn what Calvinism teaches.

 

You should be an attorney. And now you backtrack like all Calvinists and say man is not as bad as he could possibly be. Make up your mind, is man totally depraved or not? Last time I looked up the word total it meant complete or 100%. And some Calvinists are consistent and teach this, Pink taught that everything the unsaved man does is sin.

It is amazing how Arminian you Calvinists get when you are forced to explain reality. Jesus said that sinners could do good.

You asked a question that can only have one answer. This is a false argument.

You still not have answered my objection to Calvinism. How can a person be regenerated and spiritually dead at the same time? How can an infant be regenerated for years as that associate of Sproul's wrote before believeing in Christ and having their sins forgiven?

Could an infant be regenerated, commit sins for years and not trust Christ until he is 20 years old? Could he be spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same moment for 20 years?

Why won't you answer this question?

 

Still waiting for an answer from you.

How can a person be regenerated, born again, spiritually alive before they are justified by faith? How can they be spiritually alive and dead in their sins at the same moment?

 

I'm through with this debate. I will and do fellowship with alot of Calvinists, who understand it a might better than you do, even in my own church. And if you believe we can only have fellowship if we come to an understanding of Calvinism, you don't understand fellowship very well, either.

You are certainly allowed to have any view you want. Personally I think you just enjoy the debate, not the fellowship, but that's just my opinion.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

Sorry folks, it's been a busy couple of days. Though I'm surprised by what I've found in this thread.

Sorta proves my point about some Calvinists being just plain disagreeable. Im happy to engage about the OP and will be happy to again iterate my objections to the five points in another, more germane, thread.

I stand by my point that the OP shouldn't be mad or sad at these people leaving. I would likely leave if I were attending a church where the pastor decided he was a five point Calvinist. Also, I don't think they hate you...they are just discerning.