Why is there evil in the world?

[Thinkingstuff]

TS....define this for me please.... "double predestination"

God predestines the elect. God predestines those who are damned. Double predestination. Niether group has a choice in the matter. They are either chosen to be saved or they are chosen to burn. God's choice alone. Thus logically man has no responsibility apart from Adam and God become a tyrant.

 

[psalms109:31]

By my will

If it is by my will that I am saved then I can make my own way to salvation, but I am saved by the will of God because it is His way.

 

[Jim1999]

Just to be clear, the doctrine of double predestination is nothing short of heresy of the biggest order, and no calvinist, in his right mind, would entertain it.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[psalms109:31]

For the record

Hardening someone's heart and given them over to their own evil desires's is the same thing to me.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Just to be clear, the doctrine of double predestination is nothing short of heresy of the biggest order, and no calvinist, in his right mind, would entertain it.

Cheers,

Jim

I agree with you. Calvin I'm certain wouldn't want to be associated with this view, however, if you take his tennants and follow them to their logical conclussion Calvinism ultimately becomes a double predestinarian view. For instance follow the conclusion of the infralapsarianism view. God becomes ultimately responsible for evil. Because he decrees the fall must occur. And if you hold to preterition then ultimately a choice not to choose is the same as choosing.

 

[Luke2427]

God predestines the elect. God predestines those who are damned. Double predestination. Niether group has a choice in the matter. They are either chosen to be saved or they are chosen to burn. God's choice alone. Thus logically man has no responsibility apart from Adam and God become a tyrant.

That's not accurate but if it was would you praise him? does he not have the right?

God doesn't drag anybody to hell kicking and screaming. Men come into this world with a nature to hate God. They go to hell because that's where they deserve to go.

People who go to heaven go to heaven because God was gracious and merciful to them.

 

[Jim1999]

As I have stated many times, everything falls under the absolute sovereignty of God. Man's free will falls under a branch of sovereignty called God's permissive will. God allows man to move and have his being and freedom of choice, but may be limited by "thus far and no further."

A long ways from double predestination. God does choose those to be His elect, but PASSES by the remainder to THEIR own destiny....not predestination, but their choice.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That's not accurate but if it was would you praise him? does he not have the right?

God doesn't drag anybody to hell kicking and screaming. Men come into this world with a nature to hate God. They go to hell because that's where they deserve to go.

People who go to heaven go to heaven because God was gracious and merciful to them.

creating a man to go to hell is a problem. Whether they go "kicking and screaming" is irrelevant. They know nothing other than to be "hell bound". Its like making a robot for the purposes of vulcanism. The only difference from a moral perspective is that a human is a living moral agent created by God. A robot has no agency. However, in Calvin's theological view man has no other choice after Adam and thus is no better off than the robot.

 

[Luke2427]

creating a man to go to hell is a problem. Whether they go "kicking and screaming" is irrelevant. They know nothing other than to be "hell bound". Its like making a robot for the purposes of vulcanism. The only difference from a moral perspective is that a human is a living moral agent created by God. A robot has no agency. However, in Calvin's theological view man has no other choice after Adam and thus is no better off than the robot.

So then in your view God is obligated to try to save men. Why?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So then in your view God is obligated to try to save men. Why?

Its the obligation of the creator. The creator is responsible for his creation. Also note God loves himself (in a non selfish way) very much. He is complete within himself and God values himself. If you are agreeable to this view then imagine God creates man in his own image. Thus to have his image alone stamped on man (so to speak) alone gives man value. Though we discover through scripture that God has reasons to value man above just this reason and wants to have a deep loving relationship with man that he sends his own son to redeem man and even places men who believe in him in a felial relationship. Saved men thus are awarded a special relationship of communion with God that has been described in scriptures like unto a wedding or a marriage. This I believe is why God is obligated.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

As I have stated many times, everything falls under the absolute sovereignty of God. Man's free will falls under a branch of sovereignty called God's permissive will. God allows man to move and have his being and freedom of choice, but may be limited by "thus far and no further."

A long ways from double predestination. God does choose those to be His elect, but PASSES by the remainder to THEIR own destiny....not predestination, but their choice.

Cheers,

Jim

Thus they must be given a choice in order to choose. Calvinism provides that this is impossible. Apart from Adam there is no choice. You have provided for a limited view of free will which comes into contradiction with Calvin in other instances.

 

[Luke2427]

Its the obligation of the creator.

That's amazing.

The creator is responsible for his creation.

Who holds him accountable?

Also note God loves himself (in a non selfish way) very much. He is complete within himself and God values himself. If you are agreeable to this view then imagine God creates man in his own image. Thus to have his image alone stamped on man (so to speak) alone gives man value. Though we discover through scripture that God has reasons to value man above just this reason and wants to have a deep loving relationship with man that he sends his own son to redeem man and even places men who believe in him in a felial relationship. Saved men thus are awarded a special relationship of communion with God that has been described in scriptures like unto a wedding or a marriage. This I believe is why God is obligated.

Let me ask you this, then. Is the eternal suffering of a man in hell a small price to pay for the the eternal glory of Christ in your estimation. Or would you say that God's glory is not worthy of that?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That's amazing.

Yes, it is. The Creator has a moral obligation to that which he creates. Especially, since man is a living moral agent.

Who holds him accountable?

He is himself accountable to himself and to his nature he cannot act contrarily to his perfections.

Let me ask you this, then. Is the eternal suffering of a man in hell a small price to pay for the the eternal glory of Christ in your estimation. Or would you say that God's glory is not worthy of that?

Two different topics. Eternal suffering is a consiquence of man's decision to rebel against God. God's Glory is self evident.

 

[Luke2427]

Yes, it is. The Creator has a moral obligation to that which he creates. Especially, since man is a living moral agent.

He is himself accountable to himself and to his nature he cannot act contrarily to his perfections.

Are you serious?

Two different topics. Eternal suffering is a consiquence of man's decision to rebel against God. God's Glory is self evident.

Is there a Calvary without evil?

Was Calvary the plan of God when he built the universe?

Is there eternal praise to the Lamb that was slain for infinite mercy and grace if there is no sin?

How is God's omnipotent wrath against evil displayed if there are no sinners going to hell?

Sin was not an untended consequence. It was the plan of God from the beginning.

Did you watch the video in the OP?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Are you serious?

Yes I am. God can't act contrarily to his nature or his characteristics or to his perfections.

Is there a Calvary without evil?

So are you seriously suggesting that God ordained evil just so that he can suffer and die? God is not a masochist. God does not tempt nor is tempted. God is not evil.

Was Calvary the plan of God when he built the universe?

yes but your cause/effect relationship is off. Evil and sin is a consiquence of the decisions of free agents.

Is there eternal praise to the Lamb that was slain for infinite mercy and grace if there is no sin?

again cause/effect is off. Is God worthy of praise apart from Calvary? Did angels cry "holy holy holy, is the lord God Almighty" before God created man?

How is God's omnipotent wrath against evil displayed if there are no sinners going to hell?

You really said that? Wow. So you're saying God has something to prove and bets your and my life on it. How irresponsible is that?

Sin was not an untended consequence. It was the plan of God from the beginning.

There is a difference from God understanding the ramification of choice for free agents and causing it to happen. The latter is your camp and too horrible to contemplate because if it were true God would tempt, God would be evil.

Did you watch the video in the OP?

No but I've been around the block a few times with these issues.

 

[Luke2427]

Yes I am. God can't act contrarily to his nature or his characteristics or to his perfections.

And what about his nature says he is obligated to try to save fallen creatures? What about Lucifer and the third part of the angels of heaven? Is the Almighty under obligation to them to try to save them????

So are you seriously suggesting that God ordained evil just so that he can suffer and die? God is not a masochist. God does not tempt nor is tempted. God is not evil.

Nope. For the praise and glory of Calvary is why he ordained evil. To DISPLAY his love and grace and mercy is why he built the universe, isn't it? That Jesus Christ might receive the praise of a multitude which no man can number forever and ever for his going to Calvary.

Did you just say that that makes God a masochist??? MY, my!

yes but your cause/effect relationship is off. Evil and sin is a consiquence of the decisions of free agents.

An unintended consequence???

again cause/effect is off. Is God worthy of praise apart from Calvary? Did angels cry "holy holy holy, is the lord God Almighty" before God created man?

Do we not have a song the angels cannot sing because of Calvary, because of redemption? Do we not have a salvation that the angels long to look into???

Could God have received praise forever for mercy when he was never able to bestow it upon any creature had evil not come into being??

You really said that? Wow. So you're saying God has something to prove and bets your and my life on it. How irresponsible is that?

god had something to display didn't he? Romans 5:8, Ephesians 2:7, etc...

There is a difference from God understanding the ramification of choice for free agents and causing it to happen. The latter is your camp and too horrible to contemplate because if it were true God would tempt, God would be evil.

Could God have made the universe and Adam and the serpent and Lucifer in such a way that evil never come to pass? Did he not know that if he made everything he made a certain way that evil would come into being? Could he not have tweaked it so that evil would not come to pass?

God so obviously planned it. Not only does good ol common sense and sound logic demand it- but the Bible teaches it doesn't it?

God worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will.

For of Him and through Him adn to him are all things...

No but I've been around the block a few times with these issues.

I hope you don't wind up like the Israelites and have to go around forty years before you get it.

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust

The angels had their chance for repentance in the presence of God. Just like we are now given a chance to ask for forgiveness in the presence of God only at the cross the only place where God and sinful man meet face to face.

Meet Jesus there He is there with open arms. Praise be to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Luke2427]

The angels had their chance for repentance in the presence of God.

What do you base this on?

 

[psalms109:31]

Christ

What do you base this on?

They were in the presence of God when they were cast down not like us. We have hope and His name is Jesus Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And what about his nature says he is obligated to try to save fallen creatures? What about Lucifer and the third part of the angels of heaven? Is the Almighty under obligation to them to try to save them????

First of all apart from God's revelation about angels in the bible you and I have no idea what God has or has not done for angels. Next God did not created angels in his image. Next God did not tempt Lucifer he (Lucifer) conscieved it of himself. There are so many things at play here and we don't have all the information because ultimately God's revealed word to man is about man's salvation.

Nope.

You are saying the exact same thing. Look how you phrase it here

For the praise and glory of Calvary is why he ordained evil. To DISPLAY his love and grace and mercy is why he built the universe, isn't it? That Jesus Christ might receive the praise of a multitude which no man can number forever and ever for his going to Calvary.

You're suggesting God has to prove and in order to prove it ordained (created evil of himself) so that he could suffer and die.

Did you just say that that makes God a masochist??? MY, my

Its your theology not mine. However, what else would you call it.

An unintended consequence???

Are you suggesting then that Adam could not have resisted the temptation? If that were the case Adam could not be guilty of sin any more than dirt can be blamed for mud when water hits it. Because its obeying the laws of nature for which is was created. And thus is Adam was made to so that he must sin he is obeying God thus is guiltless.

Do we not have a song the angels cannot sing because of Calvary, because of redemption? Do we not have a salvation that the angels long to look into???

this statement is kind of irrelevant. God didn't suffer and die so that we can sing praise. He did it to redeem lost men. A person may save my life by pulling me out of the path of a truck for which I may praise him but only so sociopath would push me in front of the truck to begin with so that I can sing his praise. God is not like that.

Could God have received praise forever for mercy when he was never able to bestow it upon any creature had evil not come into being??

Could God have been praised if evil never came? Of course he could and mercy is a characteristic or perfection of God it is self evident. Only a sick person would create a circumstance to show off this ability.

god had something to display didn't he? Romans 5:8, Ephesians 2:7, etc...

God is self evident. He has nothing to prove.

Could God have made the universe and Adam and the serpent and Lucifer in such a way that evil never come to pass?

However, could he have made them free agents with out the possibility of evil?

God so obviously planned it. Not only does good ol common sense and sound logic demand it- but the Bible teaches it doesn't it?

Thus God is the author of evil. And no the bible doesn't teach it. Taking verses out of context and out of the "whole" is the only way someone may say that.

God worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will.

Yes so lets thank God that he is not evil.

I hope you don't wind up like the Israelites and have to go around forty years before you get it.

A little scripture reading should reveal to you that Isreal didn't wander in the desert for an extra 40 years because they didn't believe in calvinism. But because they didn't trust God to do as he said and to protect them.