You are saying that a born again person is not saved (yet). Correct?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?
- Thread starter zrs6v4
- Start date
- Status
You are saying that a born again person is not saved (yet). Correct?
His salvation is not complete yet but he is as good as saved because it WILL be complete.
Just like the new birth for a baby is just the first step to new life so is the new spiritual birth. That new baby is born- but now it must breathe if it will live.
A sinner is born again but he must now believe if he will live. He will believe and he will continue to live but the new birth is what brings that to pass.
This is what Calvinists have taught for centuries all the way back to Augustine and I think- Paul. And really Jesus in John 3.
Last edited by a moderator:
Robert Snow
New Member
Exactly! God has given to Christ all those who CHOOSE to obey the Gospel. I think you might be getting it!
Still do. It's not about regenerate v. unregenerate.
That is vague and can mean a number of things.
Lie.
You said it...doesn't make it true, though.
Obviously it wasn't so clear as 3 people thought the same thing.
Um...yeah, it did. See the above answer.
How many times are you going to ask...yes, it did.
Like I said for maybe the 10th time...Paul is NOT addressing regenerate v. unregenerate man but living by the flesh v. living by the Spirit! You NEED it to be about pre faith regeneration because you only have a handful of "proof text" verses, none of which say anything about the matter.
Last edited by a moderator:
What happens if he dies before he believes? Does he go to hell since his salvation was not complete? Some say a man can be regenerate (born again) for years before he believes.
convicted1
Guest
Bro Luke,
The quotes I bolded are somethings I want to address.
The quote that you used that was written by John is correct. They have been born of God. Once this takes place, salvation is in one's soul. They have been born again/born from above. I understand the point you are trying to make about salvation being a process, but it's not. Salvation is being born again/born from above because look at the prefix salv-. I take that as the word "salve" as in a healing salve, that heals burns. So salvation is a healing from future burning. It's not in the process, but is the end result of the process. Repentence is the process that leads us to salvation. When God saved my dead soul He gave me eternal life right then and there.
I will amen this statement all day long!!:thumbs: Y'all get the "dead soul" thing all wrong, IMHO. Let's take a look at this rationally. What is the only thing that keeps our physical body alive? Our soul/spirit/inner man, correct? Once that leaves, our physical body dies, correct? Once death takes place, you can take that physical body and smack it, kick it, roll it over the hill, even burn it up, and it won't know what's going on because it is dead, correct? Then how can we live in our physical body if our soul is in the exact same dead state???? So, even though its "dead", it is not the same "death" as our physical body, when it "dies". It is seperated from God because of sin, and not the same "dead" as when our physical body dies. If the soul in our body dies the same way as the physical body does, then we are completely dead. Our soul is seperated from God, but is functional, meaning that it(soul), causes us to breathe, keep our heart beating, our lungs inflating and deflating, etc. So, in conclusion, even though our soul is "dead", it is still functional, or we'd die physically when our soul died.
i am I am's!!
Willis
convicted1
Guest
I havent been following this much or know what the claims are, but here is what dead soul means. I could be labeled from a Calvinistic perspective BTW:
Spiritually dead soul in a living body:
1. It is functional and alive
2. It isn't dead in the sense of physical dead bodies
3. The soul is eternal and does not cease to exist or die
4. It is dead to spiritually good things (God and His work for example)
5. It is dead to spiritual things due to sin and the nature of sin
6. It is dead to obedience to God
7. It is dead to God's ways
8. It is dead in its senses such as eyes and ears
9. It is unable to please God due to the sin barrier
The word dead is used in Scripture to explain the possibility of a person in sin doing things pleasing to God or even coming to God in and of himself. The language is used to show what its like not what it is. A spiritually dead person is in total submission of evil in the world and either walking, jogging, or running full speed into hardening their hearts.
Example: Giving the gospel to a spiritually dead person and expecting them to respond rightly is "LIKE" giving it to a dead corpse. Therefore it is equally impossible for them. A non-cals best argument would be to say the Holy Spirit enlightens them for a period, through the gospel, enabling them to see truth and respond. The issue is that just giving a dead person eyes and ears would not only be contrary to the Spirit's work, but would also give a spiritually dead person a good will or mind to use apart from the Spirit's work.
That's my $0.02
Last edited by a moderator:
Amy, I don't necessarily agree with all that is going on in this discussion. I'm sure nobody is trying to understand the others perspective as usual
, but I will say that in the view of regeneration (which is where I have been wanting to spend time when I get time) it is willed and purposed by God to bring a sinner to Christ. God is in control. Since God is also in control of our death, why would he regenerate someone He knows will die? The answer is that would be purposeless and if the reformed view of regeneration is correct, then God would not bring them to death in the middle of His work in them to salvation and ruin His own work.convicted1
Guest
I havent been following this much or know what the claims are, but here is what dead soul means. I could be labeled from a Calvinistic perspective BTW:
Spiritually dead soul in a living body:
1. It is functional and alive
2. It isn't dead in the sense of physical dead bodies
3. The soul is eternal and does not cease to exist or die
4. It is dead to spiritually good things (God and His work for example)
5. It is dead to spiritual things due to sin and the nature of sin
6. It is dead to obedience to God
7. It is dead to God's ways
8. It is dead in its senses such as eyes and ears
9. It is unable to please God due to the sin barrier
The word dead is used in Scripture to explain the possibility of a person in sin doing things pleasing to God or even coming to God in and of himself. The language is used to show what its like not what it is. A spiritually dead person is in total submission of evil in the world and either walking, jogging, or running full speed into hardening their hearts.
Example: Giving the gospel to a spiritually dead person and expecting them to respond rightly is "LIKE" giving it to a dead corpse. Therefore it is equally impossible for them. A non-cals best argument would be to say the Holy Spirit enlightens them for a period, through the gospel, enabling them to see truth and respond. The issue is that just giving a dead person eyes and ears would not only be contrary to the Spirit's work, but would also give a spiritually dead person a good will or mind to use apart from the Spirit's work.
That's my $0.02
First of all, thanks for the civility you have shown to me, not that I have had many bad responses, but thanks, just the same.:thumbs:
I just don't agree with the "dead soul" not being able to respond. Here is why:
John Ch. 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Here is the word used for dead in Greek: nekros Strong's 3498
1) properly
a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate
2) metaph.
a) spiritually dead
1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
2) inactive as respects doing right
b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
Greek word for hear: akouō Strong's 191
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2) to hear
b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said
c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3) to hear something
a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
b) to get by hearing learn
c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
e) to comprehend, to understand
When you put those two greek words together, you can get the real picture. They that are "dead", are dead in sins and trespasses unto God, but they are still able to respond to God's call. It says "they that hear shall live!!" Now, all of this is to come from God first before anything can happen. All good and perfect gifts comes from the Father of Lights, in whom there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. It takes God to set up the Godly sorrow in one's life before they can be saved. After this occurs, it's up to the individual to respond to it.
i am I am's!!
Willis
psalms109:31
Active Member
Veil
2 Corinthians 3:
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[Or reflect] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
We all are natural man dieing day by day. Our bodies are perishing and not being regenerated.
I want to tell you a story.
I have loved God most of my known life. The Father drew me by one simple phrase. That God love the world, the rest of that verse I didn't understand, but I loved God because He loved me and that was all I needed to know. It wasn't until I was 11 that the Father introduced me to His Son and I understood the rest of the verse and I gave my life to Jesus. The church I went to at that time didn't baptize. I wanted to be baptized and I told them that Jesus was baptized and I wanted to follow Him, but they said that Jesus did it to fill a prophesy. I knew it was wrong not to baptize, but I didn't argue it any further.
When I did start going to a Baptist Church and saved and baptized with my wife through the Baptist belief. I really thought baptism is what I was missing in my life. It took me being baptized to realize the change I needed came from the God not from me and what I did.
We are not called to understand at first, but to trust in Jesus and He washes us cleanses us renew and regenerate our soul. He teaches us.
Colossians 2:
2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
2 Corinthians 3:
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[Or reflect] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
We all are natural man dieing day by day. Our bodies are perishing and not being regenerated.
I want to tell you a story.
I have loved God most of my known life. The Father drew me by one simple phrase. That God love the world, the rest of that verse I didn't understand, but I loved God because He loved me and that was all I needed to know. It wasn't until I was 11 that the Father introduced me to His Son and I understood the rest of the verse and I gave my life to Jesus. The church I went to at that time didn't baptize. I wanted to be baptized and I told them that Jesus was baptized and I wanted to follow Him, but they said that Jesus did it to fill a prophesy. I knew it was wrong not to baptize, but I didn't argue it any further.
When I did start going to a Baptist Church and saved and baptized with my wife through the Baptist belief. I really thought baptism is what I was missing in my life. It took me being baptized to realize the change I needed came from the God not from me and what I did.
We are not called to understand at first, but to trust in Jesus and He washes us cleanses us renew and regenerate our soul. He teaches us.
Colossians 2:
2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Last edited by a moderator:
Exactly! All those who choose to obey the Gospel do so because they have been given to Christ!:thumbs:
Those who are born again are born again because God has purposed to save them- it is impossible that the purposes of God could be thwarted.
To be honest, however, I don't know that I agree that folks are often born again for years before they come to Christ.
I think there can be a period of spiritual incubation before the new birth where there is spiritual life growing but not yet a new birth- and that may indeed take years for whatever purposes God so chooses.
But it seems to me that Scripture teaches that once a person is born from above so that he can receive the things of the Spirit of God (namely the Gospel) that he does shortly thereafter- often times immediately.
"Hyperbole" is an easy word to type when you cannot respond, isn't it?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Soul
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
We are seperated from the Spirit and life, Spirit is life, it can't die.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
We are seperated from the Spirit and life, Spirit is life, it can't die.
What is there to respond to, Luke? I posted another person who agrees with me completely. Even Clarke's summary of the chapter supports my understanding of natural man IN CONTEXT. Like I"ve said repeatedly it's about a worldly mindset vs. a spiritual one. Of course the unregenerate are going to be worldly and think like that...BUT...a regenerate person can do the same, and the church at Corinth WAS. THAT is the main purpose for Paul's letter. It is not about regenerate vs. unregenerate like you are trying to make it.
They way you bicker and antagonize is not one of Paul's requirements for the pastorate, brother! Do you know what "above reproach" means...and how would your congregation feel reading your posts on the baptistboard? Do they? Have you been a pastor long?
Last edited by a moderator:
Amy, I don't necessarily agree with all that is going on in this discussion. I'm sure nobody is trying to understand the others perspective as usual
You do realize what you are saying here don't you? If God will not allow a child who he has regenerated to die before coming to faith, then all children who die before they are old enough to express faith in Christ are lost and go to hell.
So, are you willing to tell every parent who has lost a baby or young child that their child is burning in hell? Because that is exactly what is happening if what you just wrote is true.
- Status