Everything has a cause though, right?
So, what is the cause of Satan and Adam being the source of evil?
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Will- Is there not a cause?
- Thread starter Luke2427
- Start date
Everything has a cause though, right?
So, what is the cause of Satan and Adam being the source of evil?
I think that is a very good question.
I will tell you what I think if you will tell me whether you agree that choices have causes or not.
Again, I'm here to evaluate Calvinism. If Calvinism is the truth, it will have me turn away from any false beliefs I might have. We don't need to worry about what I do or do not believe.
Let's let Calvinism stand on it's own. Surely it can withstand that test, can't it?
So, what is the cause of Satan and Adam being the source of evil?
God is the ultimate cause for everything.
Amos 3:6
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?
OK, I'm glad we got that straight. So, sin entered the world because God caused it, correct? God caused Satan to rebel originally, correct?
Not the direct cause but the ultimate cause- yes.
A good illustration of how this works is Job.
Satan was the direct cause of Job's suffering.
Satan put his hand on Job's family and wealth, etc... and destroyed it.
But Job understood something that "free willers" do not.
He said, "The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away."
Then when Satan touched Job's body and struck with boils, Job told his wife, "Shall we receive good FROM GOD and not evil?"
Satan was the agent and the direct cause and his motive was evil.
But God was the ultimate cause and his motive was holy.
Let's not deal with lower levels. I'd rather deal with the origin, as it were.
I ask again about Satan. Satan rebelled. He made a choice to rebel. What was the cause of his choice?
What do you mean lower levels? I gave you the ULTIMATE origin- is that not what you asked?
You want a simple answer to an infinitely complex question- you are not going to get it from me or anybody on either side of the aisle- ever.
The Arminian cannot fully account for it.
The Calvinist cannot fully account for it.
The Molinist cannot fully account for it.
Anyone who hates labels and thinks that makes them bible followers still cannot account for it.
I gave you what I think amounts to a fantastic, albeit perhaps a bit too simplistic, answer to your question.
I don't know what else you want.
God is the ultimate cause- that is all ANYONE can say.
What is it that you are wanting me to say?
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quantumfaith
Active Member
God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
–John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, XXII
–John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, XXII
Bingo. There it is.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Here is a link to an interesting article:
http://www.apprehendingtruth.net/Is God the Author of Sin.pdf
Disclaimer: The view and opinions expressed in this link do not necessarily reflect those of the poster. They should only be viewed as the positions of the link author
http://www.apprehendingtruth.net/Is God the Author of Sin.pdf
Disclaimer: The view and opinions expressed in this link do not necessarily reflect those of the poster. They should only be viewed as the positions of the link author
Here's where we differ. I believe that God is the cause of our ability to choose, but he is not the cause of the choices we make. God built into man the ability to make choices, and to make those choices freely.
If I created a robot and gave that robot the ability to choose different paths, do I dictate to the robot what path it must take? No, I gave it the ability to choose any path it wishes. It is the robots choice and responsibility to choose the path.
Neither would you be in control of that robot.
And that robot's choices will come down to bits a bites of information that you programmed it with that are too complex for you to be able to predict what choices it would make.
God is not so. If God made the robot he would know exactly the outcome of every bit and bite of info down to the minutest detail as he was designing it. He would know that if he tweaked it here what it would cause the robot to choose and if he tweaked it ever so slightly there what it would cause the robot to choose there.
While designing that robot, God would know what that design plus the circumstance (which he also designed) would cause that robot to do on Monday the 11th of January ten years from now.
You see that robot's choices are the result of a combination of its microprocessor and the circumstances which present themselves to the robot.
God would control ALL of that- he designed ALL of it knowing EXACTLY what it would cause the robot to choose on January the 11th Monday night at 5:01 ten years from now.
God's design of the robot and the circumstances ULTIMATELY caused the robot to choose what he chose.
Yes, so you believe that God is the cause of murder, rape, and every other evil deed. I don't believe that. I won't ever believe that God is the cause of those things. I think our discussion is done. We've reached a place where we have decided that we worship different gods.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Ahhhh... and here comes the rape thing.
Always the rape thing.
You not liking it doesn't make it not true.
God is the ultimate cause of all things.
He could have designed the universe in such a way that no one was ever raped but he didn't.
What does that tell you?
Think about it and consider Romans 11:36 "For of him and through him and to him are ALL things to whom be glory forever and ever."
If you believe in a god who is NOT the ultimate cause of all things then you may be in a bad way.
Fortunately I think God is patient and merciful even when we say we do not believe in Him as He is.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Wait. You have been clear many times that you would not talk about what you believe. You have been asked, and say over and over....this is not about what I believe. Yet now you tell us.
Being that you now want to tell us what you believe, why not go back and answer what you dodged before? It seems like you just want to control the debate within your frame work, telling others to answer as you wish them to.
It certainly doesn't tell one that God is the "cause" of sin.
Let me ask you something: Can an individual without volition be logically/truthfuly held morally responsible for his choices?
Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.
Steven2006
New Member
Just because God allows someone to choose sin, doesn't mean He is the cause of that sin.
God hates sin, He is not causing us to sin.
God hates sin, He is not causing us to sin.