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Calvinists- How many points?

How many points of TULIP do you hold to?

  • I hold to all five points of TULIP

    Votes: 25 71.4%
  • I reject or have issues with T- Total Depravity

    Votes: 3 8.6%
  • I reject or have issues with U- Unconditional Election

    Votes: 2 5.7%
  • I reject or have issues with L- Limited Atonement

    Votes: 4 11.4%
  • I reject or have issues with I- Irresistable Grace

    Votes: 4 11.4%
  • I reject or have issues with P- Perseverance of the Saints

    Votes: 2 5.7%
  • I reject or have issues with two or more points- Please identify which points

    Votes: 2 5.7%
  • Other- Please explain

    Votes: 3 8.6%

  • Total voters
    35
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Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I believe RC Sproul would disagree with the use of thug to describe M. Calvin.

Taken from Sproul's paper " Theologian"

Calvin brought to the study of theology a passion for biblical truth and a coherent understanding of the Word of God. Of all of the thinkers of the sixteenth century, Calvin was most noted for his ability to provide a systematic theological understanding of Christian truth. His magnum opus, Institutes of the Christian Religion, remains to this day a titanic work in the field of systematic theology. Luther did not live long enough to recognize the full impact of Calvin’s work, though he did see that Calvin would become a towering figure. It was left to one who knew Calvin and his work more extensively, namely, Philip Melancthon, Luther’s assistant and an impressive scholar in his own right, to give Calvin the sobriquet “the Theologian.” Thus, if one mentions “the Philosopher,” we understand that to mean a reference to Aristotle. On the other hand, if one mentions “the Theologian,” the heirs of the Reformation think exclusively of John Calvin.

In our day there seems to be an ongoing battle between advocates of systematic theology and advocates of biblical theology. We are living in a time of unprecedented antipathy toward rationality and logic. Where systematic theology used to reign supreme in theological seminaries, it has all but vanished, exiled to the perimeter of academic studies. This antipathy toward rationality and logic finds its nadir in the modern allergy against systematic theology, with nothing to fill its place except the expansion of biblical theology. A possible tendency exists in biblical theology to interpret the Bible atomistically without a concern for coherency and unity. This dichotomy between biblical theology and systematic theology is a classic example of the fallacy of the false dilemma, sometimes called the either-or fallacy. If we look to John Calvin, we see a scholar whose mastery of the content of Scripture was unparalleled. Calvin had a passion for the Bible, as well as a monumental knowledge of the Bible, and yet he is known as a systematic theologian. He was not a systematic theologian in the sense that he took some extra-biblical philosophical system and forced it upon the Bible. For him, a system was not a preconceived Procrustean bed to which the Bible was forced to conform. On the contrary, Calvin’s system of doctrine was the result of his attempt to find the coherent substance of the Bible itself. That is, Calvin worked out the system that is within Scripture, not a system that is imposed upon Scripture. Calvin was convinced that the Word of God is coherent and that God does not speak in contradictions or in illogical statements. It has been said a multitude of times that consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. If that is in fact true, then one would have to come to the conclusion that the smallest mind in the universe is the mind of God, because God in His thinking is altogether consistent and altogether coherent. It is in that appreciation of the nature of God that Calvin sought passionately to set forth the unity of the Word of God. In that regard, he has done a masterful service to the history of Christian thought. Some people see Calvinism, bearing the name of John Calvin, as an odious distortion of the Word of God. Those who appreciate Calvin’s commitment to biblical truth see Calvinism as “a nickname for biblical Christianity,” as Spurgeon said.

Calvin in debate could draw on his encyclopedic knowledge of biblical passages, as well as the ability to quote at length from ancient thinkers such as Augustine and Cicero. But above all things, Calvin sought to be true to the Word of God. He was the biblical theologian par excellence who was at the same time a singularly gifted systematic theologian.

We owe a great debt to this man. He is God’s gift to the church, not only for the sixteenth century but for all time.
 
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Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Church has always been under the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and was administered by local New Testement [sic]churches similiar[sic] like the ones we have today.

Are you a Landmarker?

He was a thug in charge of a city briefly. He claimed to believe in seperation of church and state, yet, when it came time to fufill his lust for power, he became mayor of Geneva.

You certainly say a lot of things with no basis in fact. Crack open a legit Church History book once in a while. John Calvin was never "mayor of Geneva". He didn't even become a citizen of Geneva until five years before his death.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That is quite true. If you go by Calvin's entire belief, then sprinkling is the way to baptize, after all, it saves on the water bill. If you follow Calvin, then you must believe in a hierarchy, oh and don't forget the ever famous, have people murdered who do not agree with you theologically. Too bad he was not the founder of this country. We could have had a theocracy instead of a Republic.

A letter from Valentin Andrease, A Lutheran Minister passing through Geneva

"When I was in Geneva, I observed something so great which I shall remember and desire as long as I live. There is in that city not only the perfect institute of a perfect republic , but, as a special ornament, a moral discipline which makes weekly investigations into the conduct, and even the smaller transgressions, of the citizens ...All cursing & swearing, gambling, luxury, strife, hatred, fraud, etc., are forbidden, while greater sins are hardly heard of. What a glorious ornament of the Christian religion is such a purity of morals! We must lament with tears that it is wanting with us (Germans), and almost totally neglected. If it were not for the difference of religion, I would have been chained to Geneva forever."
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
This thread has strayed (and not for the better) from the five points of TULIP. It is not about Calvin the man. Please return to the OP.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Are you a Landmarker?



You certainly say a lot of things with no basis in fact. Crack open a legit Church History book once in a while. John Calvin was never "mayor of Geneva". He didn't even become a citizen of Geneva until five years before his death.

Actually the Council of Geneva begged Calvin to leave his pastorate in Strasbourg to stop the gambling, drunkenness, street brawls, adultery etc that were permeating in Geneva. He did not want to go to Geneva & stated "there is no place I fear more" When he returned, as quoted by Historian Will Durant, Calvin behaved with moderation & modesty that won all but a small minority to his support. He labored 12 to 18 hours a day as a preacher, administrator, professor of theology, superintendent of churches & schools, advisor to municipal councils and regulator of public morals and church liturgy. His successor & biographer, Theodore de Beze, marveled that one little man could carry so heavy & varied a burden.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Taken from a conversation @ the Ligonier Conference with Sinclair Ferguson, Ligon Duncon , Steve Lawson & Al Mohler.

Q: What was Calvin’s role with servetus?

Duncan: Servetus was a heretic in view of everyone, including Lutherans. He was anti-trinitarian. In any city, in that day, there were “heresy laws”. The State Churches has certain expectations of what was theologically correct. Servetus was warned by both Calvin and the City of Geneva not to come back to Geneva. He did come back, and Servetus was tried and convicted to be burned at the stake. Calvin argued for a “faster” punishment of beheading .

Mohler: At that time, the State viewed “heresy” as “treason” against the regime. The problem here is that the State . This is why Calvin argued for the separation of the Church from the State. Servetus was a liar, a poser, and a fraud. Had he been in Rome, Florence or Seville, he would have also been executed. Mohler argues, however, that heresy is a greater problem than treason, and the Church should handle the matter of heresy – not the State, and Calvin argued for this as well.

Lawson: Calvin did not prosecute or put Servetus to death. Calvin himself was not favored by the State, but was an expert witness used to prove that Servetus was, in fact, a heretic. The death of Servetus was inevitable.
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Perhaps there should be a follow up poll to find out how many of these people who are Calvinists were Free Willers before becoming Calvinists. And then why the conversion.

I was a free-willer all my life until just more recently. It took reading Scripture through for me to begin to say "Wait a minute. Am I so bold as to think I can control God??" I realized there was nothing in me to warrant salvation and that it was God who called me and made me one who could respond to Him. The more and more I read the Bible, the more and more I see the truth of the doctrine of grace.

Oh - and I've never read Calvin.
 

Robert Snow

New Member
I was a free-willer all my life until just more recently. It took reading Scripture through for me to begin to say "Wait a minute. Am I so bold as to think I can control God??" I realized there was nothing in me to warrant salvation and that it was God who called me and made me one who could respond to Him. The more and more I read the Bible, the more and more I see the truth of the doctrine of grace.

Oh - and I've never read Calvin.

I doubt this is the truth. You were influenced by other than reading the scripture. No one would read the bible and come up with Calvinism.
 

saturneptune

New Member
Saturn.....where do you come off calling Calvin a thug? Is this what you pick up from belonging to a apostate liberal anything goes church (Presbyterian Church-USA)? Unbelievable.
Get your facts straight. I grew up in a very conservative Presbyterian church (PCA) which was in another post. There is not a liberal bone in my body. No doubt your definition of conservative and morality is the Republican Party. We were told by a moderator not to talk about Calvin the man, so why don't you stop? If you want to discuss this advocate for sprinking, the Holy Catholic Church, taking human life and a lust for power, start a new thread.

I made my position quite clear at the start of this thread. The Bible teaches all five points. Read before you post, or better yet, read and understand.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
I doubt this is the truth. You were influenced by other than reading the scripture. No one would read the bible and come up with Calvinism.

Obviously you know better than Ann herself. Sure...because you consider yourself sovereign?

Your statement is ridiculous absurdity of a kind that is usually seen in the world among political partisans who cannot bring themselves to be cordial in any way to someone who holds a different opinion...probably because they are so insecure (not in their opinion, but in and of themselves) that they think honest disagreement is an attack.

You have accused a sister in Christ of being a liar--and intentionally misleading through her own testimony. You owe her an apology.

The Archangel
 

glfredrick

New Member
Actually, you miss the point. If there are more Reformed leaders, then why is a thug picked for a naming of an entire doctrine. There is nothing wrong with the doctrine, not at all.

Why even mention Catholicism? Is that your standard for believing doctrine, or what is in the Bible? By the way, I have never been to a IFB website in my life, and could care less what they believe.

Your post is indeed odd, for example "you might want to study is a bit the way the Church, under Catholicism." is a ridiculous statement. The Church was never, ever under the Catholic Church. The Church has always been under the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and was administered by local New Testement churches similiar like the ones we have today. The Church has never been Catholic, never will be, and you got lots of nerve using the term Church in the same sentence as a heretical organization like the Roman Catholic Church.

As far as Calvin being head of state, not hardly. He was a thug in charge of a city briefly. He claimed to believe in seperation of church and state, yet, when it came time to fufill his lust for power, he became mayor of Geneva. A human being, a creation of the Lord, forfeited his life for the likes of this garbage. If you wish to live under a theocracy, move to Iran or Saudia Arabia. It seems odd to me you stay in this country founded as a Democratic-Republic.

Thanks for proving my point... You really do need to actually read some church history and set aside those poisonous web sites that you use to get your information. Falshoods are not of God.
 

Robert Snow

New Member
You have accused a sister in Christ of being a liar--and intentionally misleading through her own testimony. You owe her an apology.

The Archangel

What did you accuse Saturneptune of doing:

Falshoods are not of God.

I believe there is more to her story than what she posted. I don't think anyone can derive Calvinism from reading the scripture alone because the doctrine is not there. It takes a bit of coaching or twisting of the bible verses to make Calvinism appear. Simple reading alone shows God extends His grace to all who will freely accept it.

You can get off your high horse now before you get a nose bleed.
 

glfredrick

New Member
What did you accuse Saturneptune of doing:



I believe there is more to her story than what she posted. I don't think anyone can derive Calvinism from reading the scripture alone because the doctrine is not there. It takes a bit of coaching or twisting of the bible verses to make Calvinism appear. Simple reading alone shows God extends His grace to all who will freely accept it.

You can get off your high horse now before you get a nose bleed.

You are now accusing brothers and sisters in the Lord of lying...

MODERATORS can we reign in this man?
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
The name calling continues and the thread is off track.

So it is closed, with apologies to the originator.
 
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