Bible Study: God's Foreknowledge

[Winman]

Sorry, but that's not how that works. You cannot drop "for salvation." (you can't just take prepositions out) The "through sanctification and belief" is how one is saved. god doesn't need to be sanctified nor believe, so why would that apply to him choosing us.

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

and besides, why thank God for choosing us if he didn't it just because we chose him?

Gonna keep up that nonsensical interpretation of yours?

I agree with Van and I showed from the Jamieson Fausset Brown Commentary and Matthew Henry that they interpreted this verse the same way several days ago.

But I guess you know more than these scholars.

 

[jbh28]

Gonna keep up that nonsensical interpretation of yours?

I agree with Van and I showed from the Jamieson Fausset Brown Commentary and Matthew Henry that they interpreted this verse the same way several days ago.

But I guess you know more than these scholars.

Matthew Henry wouldn't' have agreed with you guys. I also guess you know more than the other scholars that agree with me. not really a good argument.

Matthew Henry
When we hear of the apostacy of many, it is a great comfort and joy, that there is a remnant according to the election of grace, which does and shall persevere; especially we should rejoice, if we have reason to hope that we are of that number. The preservation of the saints, is because God loved them with an everlasting love, from the beginning of the world. The end and the means must not be separated. Faith and holiness must be joined together as well as holiness and happiness. The outward call of God is by the gospel; and this is rendered effectual by the inward working of the Spirit. The belief of the truth brings the sinner to rely on Christ, and so to love and obey him; it is sealed by the Holy Spirit upon his heart. We have no certain proof of any thing having been delivered by the apostles, more than what we find contained in the Holy Scriptures. Let us then stand fast in the doctrines taught by the apostles, and reject all additions, and vain traditions.

looks like Matthew Henry agrees with me.

Matthew Henry again...

, (1.) The eternal date of it - it is from the beginning; not the beginning of the gospel, but the beginning of the world, before the foundation of the world, Eph_1:4. Then, (2.) The end to which they were chosen - salvation, complete and eternal salvation from sin and misery, and the full fruition of all good. (3.) The means in order to obtaining this end - sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.

Number 2, the end is salvation
Number 3, the means to the end, sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.


Again, Matthew Henry agrees with me

 

[Winman]

Nice job. Wrong verse, but nice job.

"Being chosen of God, we must not live as we list; but if we are chosen to salvation as the end, we must be prepared for it by sanctification as the necessary means to obtain that end, which sanctification of the Holy Spirit as the author AND BY FAITH ON OUR PART."

"The decree of election therefore connects the end AND THE MEANS, AND THEY MUST NOT BE SEPARATED"

You won't agree, but what Henry is saying here is that faith on our part is necessary for election.

 

[Luke2427]

Nice job. Wrong verse, but nice job.

"Being chosen of God, we must not live as we list; but if we are chosen to salvation as the end, we must be prepared for it by sanctification as the necessary means to obtain that end, which sanctification of the Holy Spirit as the author AND BY FAITH ON OUR PART."

"The decree of election therefore connects the end AND THE MEANS, AND THEY MUST NOT BE SEPARATED"

You won't agree, but what Henry is saying here is that faith on our part is necessary for election.

Winman, you have rocks in your head if you think Matthew Henry would touch the vast majority of what you believe with a ten foot pole.

Matthew Henry was a devout Calvinist- through and through.

 

[Van]

Comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Some of the comments apparently indicated an inability to diagram English sentences as I was taught many decades ago. So I will simply say Pink's effort to say "through sanctification and faith" refers to the mechanism of salvation, rather than the mechanism of choice makes scrambled eggs of the underlying Greek grammar.

It is interesting to see how our presuppositions guide our efforts to understand scripture. For me, this verse addresses "positional sanctification" or the mechanism God uses to put believers spiritually "in Christ."

Another example is to change the meaning of from the beginning to before the beginning. The beginning refers at the earliest to the creation week, when the foundation of the world was laid. Therefore, at the earliest, it points to the period from creation, not before creation. As I said before, I believe from the beginning refers to from the beginning of the New Covenant, because it is addressing existent people and they lived without mercy before they were chosen as 1 Peter 2:9-10 says.

One of the mechanisms used to support man-made doctrines is to say such and such Greek word has many meanings, and then chose the meaning verse by verse so as to support the doctrine. Foreknew can mean a prior relationship, so Calvinists say that is the meaning in Romans 8:29. Another meaning is knowledge of something such as God's plan to redeem believers and thus this corporate election of the target group of His plan, whom He foreknew, is of course the meaning of foreknew according to me because it supports my view of scripture. The only way to strengthen the unity of the body is to pull back and only assert the minimal meanings of words, one, two maybe even three or four, but when a lexicon has 5, 10, even 15 meanings, the scripture has been made meaningless. One of the things the body needs to do, and this includes those folks with Ph D after their names, is to work on coming up with the fewest possible meanings for words and never translate different Greek words as the same word in English.

 

[Winman]

I agree with you Van on this verse, and quite a few Bible scholars do as well. This is from Barton W. Johnson's Commentary (The People's Commentary).

13-17. Chosen you to salvation. In contrast with those who fall victims to the man of sin, the Thessalonian Christians had been chosen to life. From the beginning. From the beginning God had determined on the salvation of the Gentiles, and arranged the plans by which they were saved. See notes on Romans, chapter 9, for a full discussion of this subject. Through sanctification of the Spirit. This clause tells how God chose them to salvation. To this there are two sides, the human and the divine. On the human side they believed the truth. On the divine side, God sanctified them by the Spirit. He had chosen from the beginning all that believe and accept the truth. 14. Whereunto he called you. See how God calls! It is by the gospel. 15. Therefore, stand fast. In view of your calling. Hold the traditions. Instructions. 16. Everlasting consolation. God's consolations are eternal in their effects.

 

[jbh28]

Nice job. Wrong verse, but nice job.

What verse were you talking about and which one did I do?

"Being chosen of God, we must not live as we list; but if we are chosen to salvation as the end, we must be prepared for it by sanctification as the necessary means to obtain that end, which sanctification of the Holy Spirit as the author AND BY FAITH ON OUR PART."

"The decree of election therefore connects the end AND THE MEANS, AND THEY MUST NOT BE SEPARATED"

You won't agree, but what Henry is saying here is that faith on our part is necessary for election.

Henry is saying no such thing. Henry was a Calvinist. The end according to Henry was salvation. The means to the end were "sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. So, according here to Matthew Henry, the means to salvation, not election, were sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. Henry correctly says that you cannot separate them. That's true. (why hyper Calvinism is wrong). Election isn't being saved. You can't separate them out and say election is salvation. election is to to salvation.


summary again...
Number 1 The eternal date of it - it is from the beginning; not the beginning of the gospel, but the beginning of the world, before the foundation of the world, Eph_1:4. Then, (2.) The end to which they were chosen - salvation, complete and eternal salvation from sin and misery, and the full fruition of all good. (3.) The means in order to obtaining this end - sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.

Number 2, the end is salvation
Number 3, the means to the end, sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.

 

[Winman]

What verse were you talking about and which one did I do?


Henry is saying no such thing. Henry was a Calvinist. The end according to Henry was salvation. The means to the end were "sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. So, according here to Matthew Henry, the means to salvation, not election, were sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. Henry correctly says that you cannot separate them. That's true. (why hyper Calvinism is wrong). Election isn't being saved. You can't separate them out and say election is salvation. election is to to salvation.


summary again...
Number 1 The eternal date of it - it is from the beginning; not the beginning of the gospel, but the beginning of the world, before the foundation of the world, Eph_1:4. Then, (2.) The end to which they were chosen - salvation, complete and eternal salvation from sin and misery, and the full fruition of all good. (3.) The means in order to obtaining this end - sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.

Number 2, the end is salvation
Number 3, the means to the end, sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.

Look what Henry said here;

but if we are chosen to salvation as the end, we must be prepared for it by sanctification as the necessary means to obtain that end, which sanctification of the Holy Spirit as the author AND BY FAITH ON OUR PART."

Notice Henry said "if" we are chosen to salvation as the end, we must be "prepared" for it.

Now think about that statement. What does he mean we must be prepared for it? He then answers that this preparation entails two things, sanctification of the Spirit (God's part), and FAITH ON OUR PART. That's what Henry said. You may not agree, but he is saying in order to be elect you must have faith. He is also saying you must be sanctified by the Spirit, but nonetheless he is saying there must be faith on our part for election (chosen to salvation).

Read it carefully and you will see that is what he is saying. And I have quoted several scholars now that have said the same thing.

Now compare this to 1 Peter 1:2 and you will see the exact same thing again.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Here it is saying we are elect, again through sanctification of the Spirit, but this time it says it a little differently, instead of saying "and belief of the truth" it says, UNTBEDIENCE (obeying the gospel) and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

In other words, you cannot be elect unless there is obedience (obeying the gospel) and having your sins washed away in the blood of Christ.

These verses are almost identical, except you can't play word games with this one.

 

[Van]

Reply to Winman,

Thanks for agreeing with me in part.

Where we part company is that belief in the truth is the human part of
election. He chose us through belief in the truth, therefore it is God's action of
crediting our (worthless) faith as righteousness that is the mechanism of election for salvation.

 

[Winman]

Thanks for agreeing with me in part.

Where we part company is that belief in the truth is the human part of
election. He chose us through belief in the truth, therefore it is God's action of
crediting our (worthless) faith as righteousness that is the mechanism of election for salvation.

No, I agree with you 100%. You cannot be elect unless you believe the gospel (obey the gospel). I also know that when we believe righteousness is imputed to us (Romans 4:22-24).

 

[jbh28]

Again, Henry was a Calvinist. Any interpretation of his works that makes his say something different is obviously wrong.

Look what Henry said here;



Notice Henry said "if" we are chosen to salvation as the end, we must be "prepared" for it.

Now think about that statement. What does he mean we must be prepared for it? He then answers that this preparation entails two things, sanctification of the Spirit (God's part), and FAITH ON OUR PART. That's what Henry said. You may not agree, but he is saying in order to be elect you must have faith. He is also saying you must be sanctified by the Spirit, but nonetheless he is saying there must be faith on our part for election (chosen to salvation).

Read it carefully and you will see that is what he is saying. And I have quoted several scholars now that have said the same thing.

I don't care how many scholars you quote. I can quote just as many the other way. Doctrine is not determined by how many scholars agree with you. And see as both you and I can quote scholars that agree, it's pointless.

He doesn't say election. The "end" is salvation, not election. Why don' you respond to my response instead of just repeating your self. You can look above for it.

The end to which they were chosen - salvation, complete and eternal salvation from sin and misery, and the full fruition of all good. (3.) The means in order to obtaining this end - sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.
The end = salvation
menas for the end = sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.

No, I agree with you 100%. You cannot be elect unless you believe the gospel (obey the gospel). I also know that when we believe righteousness is imputed to us (Romans 4:22-24).

So you don't believe that election was done before the foundation of the world?

 

[Winman]

Again, Henry was a Calvinist. Any interpretation of his works that makes his say something different is obviously wrong. I don't care how many scholars you quote. I can quote just as many the other way. Doctrine is not determined by how many scholars agree with you. And see as both you and I can quote scholars that agree, it's pointless.

He doesn't say election. The "end" is salvation, not election. Why don' you respond to my response instead of just repeating your self. You can look above for it.

The end to which they were chosen - salvation, complete and eternal salvation from sin and misery, and the full fruition of all good. (3.) The means in order to obtaining this end - sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.
The end = salvation
menas for the end = sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.


So you don't believe that election was done before the foundation of the world?

No, I don't see election like you do. Earlier in this thread I posted from Judges 7 where God choose 300 men for Gideon. Read the story first, and then I will explain.

Jud 7:2 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me.
3 Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand.
4 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go.
5 So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink.
6 And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water.
7 And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.

Gideon was going against the Midianites. He had 32,000 men. God said that was too many, lest the people think they delivered themselves through their own strength. 22,000 left out of fear, but 10,000 remained. God said this was still too many and that Gideon should take these men down to the river.

OK, God already knew who he had chosen, and he already knew how he would chose them. He told Gideon that every man who lapped water like a dog would be separated from those who kneeled and drank on their knees.

Now, AFTER 300 men had actually lapped like a dog, God chose these men. They were the ones that went into the battle with Gideon.

So, I view election as very similar to this. God had already decided that he would choose the men who lapped like a dog. He knew this before it happened (foreknowledge). But God did not in reality choose these 300 men until they actually in real time lapped like a dog.

I believe God determined to choose those who would believe. They had not actually believed yet, but God in his foreknowledge knew who would believe. God calls these men, because he knows they will obey and answer. And the moment they do they actually become the elect.

You see in this story that God waited until the men actually lapped water like a dog before he chose them and gave them to Gideon (a picture of Christ).

Now, you may not agree, but I see a figure or picture of God's election in this story.

 

[jbh28]

No, I don't see election like you do.

Now, you may not agree, but I see a figure or picture of God's election in this story.

no problem. But do you at least see my point about what Matthew Henry was saying?

 

[Van]

Hi Winman, yes when God credits our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:5, He puts us spiritually in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, the Spirit spiritually baptizes us into Christ, and therefore this election for salvation is accomplished through the sactification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[jbh28]

Hi Winman, yes when God credits our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:5, He puts us spiritually in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, the Spirit spiritually baptizes us into Christ, and therefore this election for salvation is accomplished through the sactification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

So you agree that salvation is accomplished through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth as the text says then. Glad to hear it as that is how the Bible always uses sanctification of the spirit and belief in regards to salvation. We have been chosen to salvation by means of sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth. This is not, chosen by means of, but saved by means of.

 

[Winman]

no problem. But do you at least see my point about what Matthew Henry was saying?

Yes, I do understand what you are saying. But you can't separate "chosen" from "to salvation". They are one and the same. If you are chosen you are saved, if you are saved, you are chosen. And this is how I believe 2 Thes 2:13 reads. When it says "through", that is pointing to the word "chosen" as Van said. I believe this is proper grammar.

But you see in the story in Judges 7 how God chose these 300 men. Now, couldn't God have simply told Gideon which men were chosen? Sure, why not?
But he didn't did he? No, he made the men fulfill a condition which he had determined beforehand. Did God force these men to lap like dogs? No, they drank that way of themselves. But in doing so they fulfilled God's condition and were afterward chosen and given to Gideon.

And this is how I believe election works. God has determined you must believe to be chosen. God knows (foreknowledge) who will believe. Yet, God waits until you actually believe to choose you.

This agrees with scripture Van posted that said at one time you were not a people, but now are a chosen generation. They did not actually become the chosen generation until they believed. Until that time they were not a people.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

See how this works? Peter tells these people they are chosen, they are the elect. But they did not actually become this chosen elect generation until AFTER they believed.

 

[jbh28]

Yes, I do understand what you are saying. But you can't separate "chosen" from "to salvation". They are one and the same. If you are chosen you are saved, if you are saved, you are chosen. And this is how I believe 2 Thes 2:13 reads. When it says "through", that is pointing to the word "chosen" as Van said. I believe this is proper grammar.

It says chosen to salvation. Seems like you are ignoring the word "to." And if I remember correctly, you believe that election took place before the foundation of the word(Eph. 1:4). So how could you say that if you are chosen then you are saved. Sounds like eternal justification, but I don't believe you believe that.

It says we are chosen to salvation. I would assume you would agree that "through" means "by means of" in this passage. So it could be worded "chosen to salvation by means of Sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth."

As Matthew Henry puts it, God has chosen us to salvation, but that isn't salvation itself. You are not born saved. Sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth is the means by which we are saved.

But you see in the story in Judges 7 how God chose these 300 men. Now, couldn't God have simply told Gideon which men were chosen? Sure, why not?
But he didn't did he? No, he made the men fulfill a condition which he had determined beforehand. Did God force these men to lap like dogs? No, they drank that way of themselves. But in doing so they fulfilled God's condition and were afterward chosen and given to Gideon.

I'm really only interested in this one passage instead of just bring in other passages. Also, this isn't about salvation to election, so it's a totally different subject. (though it would be interesting to look at in regards to this...)

And this is how I believe election works. God has determined you must believe to be chosen. God knows (foreknowledge) who will believe. Yet, God waits until you actually believe to choose you.

Except, this passage doesn't say that you have to believe to be chosen. Belief and sanctification is the means to which God saves those he has chosen for salvation.

I find it's easier to look at one passage than just running around with different passages. We end up proof texting and no real study happens.

Part 2
Let's suppose I'm right, how would you word it? I say we are chosen to salvation. We are saved through sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth. Van mentioned a grammar issue. So how would this passage be worded.

 

[Winman]

It says chosen to salvation. Seems like you are ignoring the word "to." And if I remember correctly, you believe that election took place before the foundation of the word(Eph. 1:4). So how could you say that if you are chosen then you are saved. Sounds like eternal justification, but I don't believe you believe that.

It says we are chosen to salvation. I would assume you would agree that "through" means "by means of" in this passage. So it could be worded "chosen to salvation by means of Sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth."

As Matthew Henry puts it, God has chosen us to salvation, but that isn't salvation itself. You are not born saved. Sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth is the means by which we are saved.


I'm really only interested in this one passage instead of just bring in other passages. Also, this isn't about salvation to election, so it's a totally different subject. (though it would be interesting to look at in regards to this...)

Except, this passage doesn't say that you have to believe to be chosen. Belief and sanctification is the means to which God saves those he has chosen for salvation.

I find it's easier to look at one passage than just running around with different passages. We end up proof texting and no real study happens.

Part 2
Let's suppose I'm right, how would you word it? I say we are chosen to salvation. We are saved through sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth. Van mentioned a grammar issue. So how would this passage be worded.

I suppose I would say, "Ye are chosen to salvation, and that salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth."

You know, this is the same issue non-Cals have with Calvinists over Eph 2:8.

 

[Van]

Reply to Jbh28

2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say what you want it to say. It says we are chosen, not saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

It does say we are chosen for salvation in the NASB. Now the Greek preposition which your translation renders "to" is "eis" which means "into" or "to" or "for."

So we could drop the for and the to and settle on chosen into salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. That matches my view perfectly.

 

[jbh28]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say what you want it to say. It says we are chosen, not saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

It does say we are chosen for salvation in the NASB. Now the Greek preposition which your translation renders "to" is "eis" which means "into" or "to" or "for."

So we could drop the for and the to and settle on chosen into salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. That matches my view perfectly.

Sorry, but it doesn't say "chosen through sanctification." Not a single translation says that. What you are doing is removing words to fit what you want it to say.

Let me ask you this, since you are the one that made the grammar argument. How would Paul have worded it if I'm right?

here's my view to help you out
God chose people for salvation
Salvation is through sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth.