2 Thessalonians 2:13

The fact that you lard your posts with personal attacks on my character and qualifications demonstrates your arguments are without merit.

First I never claim or suggest I have any expertise in Greek grammar. Your posts demonstrate that your claimed expertise serves only to use argument from authority which as you know is a logical fallacy.

You have convinced me that "for salvation" is the compliment and not as firstfruit.
So we have the object being "you" and the compliment being "for salvation." Chose you is complimented by the purpose statement for salvation. Yet none of this has anything to do with our difference.

The rest of your "technical" argument is all assertion and no substance as my post demonstrated.

 

Yes and I understand you in all likelyhood do not, however I would like for you to check the Greek relative to my thoughts. Thanks

 

Folks, more slander. Did I claim I knew Greek? No quote will be forthcoming. Next claiming I am something I am not. Yet another personal attack on my character.

No grammatical fact was established indicating through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth did not modify the verb chose. The grammar indicates that it does with more force that your view.

And you close claiming that stating your qualification is not an attack on me. Who said it was? Yet another strawman argument.

The Greek grammar supports my view, through sanctification indicates the means of the choice and through faith in the truth indicates the basis of the choice.

And 1 Peter 1:1-2 supports this view.

 

I read that article by Mounce and he sounds like he can barely believe his own argument. He says properly assigning prepositions is "tricky" he says things like "perhaps" or "could be", he sounds anything but certain of his own argument.

I do not know Greek, but I trust those who translated the Greek to English did and were very skilled at it. I find it ridiculous that "scholars" like Archangel come here and portray themselves as having superior skills to whole committees of well known and accomplished scholars, but arrogance knows no bounds. He is always telling us how translators erred, but he, and only he has the skill to properly translate Greek.

Right.

This verse is not complicated, the two important words are TO and THROUGH. One shows the purpose or end of being chosen, the other shows the means.

TO salvation shows the purpose of election. We are chosen to be saved.

THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth shows the means by which we are chosen. We were not chosen TO be sanctified and to believe, we were chosen THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth.

Sanctification of the Spirit is just that, the Spirit's part. Belief of the truth is man's part and is stated so many times in scripture it would be dishonest to deny it.

 

Van,
Are you slandering yourself?

:BangHead:

:laugh:

Van....who are the "folks" you are appealing to?

27TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting

 

It's an interview for the Twilight Zone......He thinks he is Rod Serling

 

Yet more personal attacks. I have presented the basis of my arguments from Greek grammar, I did not say I knew the language or the grammar, but I can read the commentary of folks who can. The preposition "en" largely is used to indicate location or sphere as in within, such as we are in Christ. But it is also used with a dative to provide adverbial information modifying verbs and other adverbs.

 

Got to love the irony of this post...

 

"en + dative is used adverbially, and to assert otherwise has no substance. Means, agent, instrumentality, manner, cause, I could go on.

 

I just call it bizarre! Danger Danger Wil Robinson.

 

The bottom line is that my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is consistent with Greek grammar, whereas the Calvinist position simply rewrites the verse, compare NASB with ESV.
Thus in 1 Peter 1:1-2 when Peter writes: "...who were chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by the sanctifying work of the Spirit..." he is telling us God's plan was to choose people by spiritually placing them in Christ, and in Christ those chosen are redeemed.

 

Would all of you agree that for four thousand years men even the ones, Israel that God chose did a very, very poor job of choosing God?

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Now some might say that we who have faith in him and are chosen in him from the foundation of the world, well we finely made the right choice. Yet Jesus says,

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

We may be better off letting God do the choosing and saving.

 

Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does say God does the choosing and the saving. But I believe it also says God does the choosing by spiritually placing a believer into Christ based on crediting the believers faith as righteousness.

Think about this, there is none that understands, none that seeks after God. When does this apply, at all times or some of the time, when we sin? Think of the context of the verse in Romans 3.

 

how many times are you going to repeat this error...you say it in almost all your posts.....it is still wrong.

 

of course you admit that you are not an expert and had no real rebuttle to the OP.

No Calvinist has re-written anything

 

The bottom line is that the Calvinist interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is consistent with Greek grammar,
whereas Van’s position simply rewrites the verse---wow—& I’m not even a full blooded Calvinist--yet its easy to see which side the Greek favors in this debate!

 

God chose you as first-fruit for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. This is a fairly straightforward sentence. The NASB translators translated it this way. My understanding of the verse is based on this translation. However, nothing brought forward by "experts" indicates there is anything wrong with my understanding.

And when you consider 1 Peter 1:1-2 which says "... who are chosen, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit,..." you find the same statement, God chose individuals through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and not saved individuals by the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

And no amount of ad homenims disparaging my character or qualifications will hide the truth.