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- Thread starter Mexdeaf
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No more than I hold that there are decent IFB churches.
I've yet to see anyone on this thread state that all IFB churches are bad. In fact, I clearly stated that my best church was IFB. So was my worst.
Certainly people are aware that power corrupts. The very nature of independent Baptist churches being unaccountable to others and their tendency to put their leaders on pedestals naturally leads to more instances of abuse of authority than is present in Baptist denominations that are held to higher degrees of accountability by being part of a fellowship and by having the power more evenly distributed?
TCassidy, it's true that I've not been to every IFB church. That doesn't mean I'm unaware of problems in IFB churches or that I have no reason to speak about the problems that run in them. Most people have never met the politicians they speak of, yet go to the news forum and read the conversations about politicians. That's because common sense combined with a knowledge of right and wrong and observing the results of political endeavors and their impact on our nation gives us the ability to speak for or against actions and quite often, you see a major divide between political parties. I don't know every democrat in the United States, but I know enough to believe the democratic party has many flaws and that I don't want to be associated with them. I don't know every Republican in the United States, but evidence combined with history speaks and I don't want to be associated with them either.
It's illogical to imply that before making an observation about IFB churches, I must first attend them all first before I have any right to state my observations based on experience, observation, news, an understanding of human nature and the witness of others.
I just had to pull this statement out because it's worth posting again. I hope those that judge others who have been through abuse read this statement and then read it again. Thanks for posting it.
BTW, nice use of the word "debacle" earlier in the thread. LOL I love a well-placed word!
"Most of them?" How can you say you can speak with any authority against "most" IFB churches when, by your own admission you know NOTHING about 99.9% of them?
You equate all IFB churches with a political party? How? A political party is a voluntary mutual association with others of like political opinions. IFB are INDEPENDENT and largely without like opinions and have NOT voluntarily associated with one another.
It is not only illogical, but dishonest, to express your observations based on experience in a tiny handful of churches as normative of most IFB churches. The most you can say is that the churches you have first hand knowledge of have certain problems. By continuing to lump all IFB churches together is dishonest and a sin. You make false accusations (by implication) bearing false witness and accusing the brethren.
If you want to gossip about problems in IFB churches go right ahead. But name the churches and name the people responsible. Don't broad brush by saying "Problems in IFB churches."
The implication is obvious. It was a question. "Most of them?" You are trying to speak authoritatively about 9,990 churches you know nothing about.
If you have something to say about some specific churches or people, name them. Don't talk about "problems in IFB churches" - giving the impression that the "problems" are indicative of IFBs in general. It is not true!
Harold Camping make a laughingstock of Christianity by his date setting. He gave the impression that all Christians, and Christianity in general, are a bunch of fools.
When you talk about IFBs you do the same thing. You bring reproach on us all, and on Christ, by not being specific in your accusations. The vast majority of IFBs are good and godly people. You can't tarnish the testimony of all of us with the evil deeds of a few.
No, the implication isn't "most of them." The implication is that many IFB churches have the types of problems being discussed.
I started naming the ones I've been personally involved in that had some major issues. I stopped because I don't know how ethical or legal that would be. The ones that have been made public are easily found on an internet search for those truly interested.
Many of them? How many? What percentage of the total? And what percentage of the total number of Presbyterian churches have similar problems. Episcopal? Methodist? Lutheran? Catholic?
I don't spend a lot of time searching the internet for the latest dirt. But if I know of any such activity I make it known regardless of the legality. A bunch of politicians don't set my ethical standards. And I name names. I don't hide behind veiled innuendo and generalities. If you know of an ongoing problem, name the church and the people. Anything else is mere gossip.
Many of them? How many? What percentage of the total? And what percentage of the total number of Presbyterian churches have similar problems. Episcopal? Methodist? Lutheran? Catholic? I don't spend a lot of time searching the internet for the latest dirt. But if I know of any such activity I make it known regardless of the legality. A bunch of politicians don't set my ethical standards. And I name names. I don't hide behind veiled innuendo and generalities. If you know of an ongoing problem, name the church and the people. Anything else is mere gossip.
The discussion is concerning IFB churches and we're talking about Baptists, not other denominations.
I don't know the percentages. Do you know the percentages of ones that do NOT have these issues? No, you don't.
Legal charges, court records, and the testimony of others is news, not gossip. Instead of turning a blind eye and stating the problem doesn't exist, do some research and speak from knowledge, not because you feel your denomination is attacked. Stop and think. ABCgrad is a pastor's wife in an IFB church. She's not attacking the denomination. Until recently, I've had my membership at IFB churches. My husband and I found ourselves led to a church that happened to be Baptist, but not IFB. The denomination is not being attacked here. The sin that exists in many of these churches is what is being attacked and viewed as wrong.
Other than that, no, I won't name the churches and people I've personally been involved with on a public forum at this time. I've gone to each church and spoken with the proper people concerning the issues in order to try to resolve the issues. One church from my childhood remains and that is my own sin. I am afraid of them and of the people who were involved. I still have five kids at home and am afraid of the consequences for them too.
Soooo...what's the last couple sins you made known and who are the people you named? Since you already did it, it's not a secret or anything, right?
Yes. 99.9%
Please do not lie about me or my activities. I have NEVER turned a blind eye to abuse of any sort. I have turned abusers into the police. I have testified in court regarding their abuse. I have picked up the pieces of broken lives as a result of abuse. I have aided in the emotional healing of those who were abused and their families! DON'T YOU DARE ACCUSE ME OF TURNING AN BLIND EYE TO SUCH ABUSE!
Also, I don't have a denomination. I, and the church I pastor, is not part of ANY denomination, association, fellowship, or any other type of organization.
Gina, of the two of us I am the one doing the thinking. It is you who, perhaps due to unhealed emotional scars, that is not thinking.
What denomination? How many times do you have to be told before it sinks in? I am not part of any denomination.
But that is not what you are doing. You are only attacking IFB churches. If you are honest and have pure motives why limit your attacks to IFB? Go after ALL baptists, not just those who have chosen to remain unaffiliated with any denomination.
Then you are nothing but a gossip!
Oh yes. I am sure they are engaged in a giant conspiracy to harm you and your children.
You want names? Fine. Earl Reeves. Preston Bunnell. Kerry Martin. And after I stood up and spoke out I helped pick up the pieces. And don't minimize vile abuse by calling it "sins." We all sin. Every day. What these people do is not "sin." It is a vile evil straight from the pit of hell!
How many times? I believe this is the first I heard of it. Being the Baptist Board and all, it's logical to figure the posters are Baptist and your eager defense of the IFB branch would definitely lead one to believe you're a part. How was I supposed to know?
How do you know all of those churches are not problematic? Have you been to them all? What gives you the power to make claims such as that when you expect me to have visited most of them before I can say boo?
As far as saying you're turning a blind eye to abuse, I said it once and I'll say it again. You're turning a blind eye to the abuse within IFB churches by denying the problem even exists. While I don't doubt your word when you say you've helped people, you've got two people on this thread who have had to pick up broken pieces and you know what? The attitude you've displayed is part of why people fear speaking out. If you honestly know what it looks like, how those people feel, you would understand what you are seeing here and your first reaction would NOT be doubt. It would not be to laugh at fear or act as if it's crazy to think that there could be harmful repercussions in speaking out. So I have to go with the moment, and at this moment you're displaying an extreme lack of empathy or caring for those abused in IFB settings and displaying animosity and mockery instead.
You're right about the need to not ignore it in other cases. However, this discussion is about that particular denom and branch, thus the focus and for me personally, that's where the majority of my experience is so that's where my focus will naturally be. Remember when your daughter was growing up? When she was a baby, you noticed other babies and that's where your experience was. As she grew, you noticed other children her age and that's where your focus was. When she was a baby, your heart was towards other kids her age, not with teenagers. When she was a teenager, that's who was in your world. Teenagers. You noticed other kids of other ages. You didn't ignore them, but matters concerning teens had priority. That's natural and normal.
How do you know all of those churches are not problematic? Have you been to them all? What gives you the power to make claims such as that when you expect me to have visited most of them before I can say boo?
As far as saying you're turning a blind eye to abuse, I said it once and I'll say it again. You're turning a blind eye to the abuse within IFB churches by denying the problem even exists. While I don't doubt your word when you say you've helped people, you've got two people on this thread who have had to pick up broken pieces and you know what? The attitude you've displayed is part of why people fear speaking out. If you honestly know what it looks like, how those people feel, you would understand what you are seeing here and your first reaction would NOT be doubt. It would not be to laugh at fear or act as if it's crazy to think that there could be harmful repercussions in speaking out. So I have to go with the moment, and at this moment you're displaying an extreme lack of empathy or caring for those abused in IFB settings and displaying animosity and mockery instead.
You're right about the need to not ignore it in other cases. However, this discussion is about that particular denom and branch, thus the focus and for me personally, that's where the majority of my experience is so that's where my focus will naturally be. Remember when your daughter was growing up? When she was a baby, you noticed other babies and that's where your experience was. As she grew, you noticed other children her age and that's where your focus was. When she was a baby, your heart was towards other kids her age, not with teenagers. When she was a teenager, that's who was in your world. Teenagers. You noticed other kids of other ages. You didn't ignore them, but matters concerning teens had priority. That's natural and normal.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Its called a random sample and its a basic statistical method. The pharmaseudical companies that make your aspirin do the same thing. They take out a handful of pills from the MILLIONS they create and test them for all the criteria the gov says aspirin should meet and then authoritatively tell us that the bottle on the shelve will help relieve your headache.
Alternately, the blood pressure meds they created were tested on a handful of people out of all the millions of people who potentially might take and be effected by the drug and then draw all sorts of authoritative conclusions on efficacy and side effects.
Here we have 3 random samples: Myself, ABCgrad and Gina. (I'm leaving out Tiny Tim because his sample is very similar to ABC's) Our random samples include churches from Michigan to Alabama and several points in between (myself), West Virginia (ABC) and Ohio to the west coast (Gina). Each of our experiences becomes a random sampling of churches. That makes 3 random samples. Not only can we draw conclusions from any of our samples, but comparing the 3 gives us even more infomation.
Such as: We all have good and bad experiences. Is it 50/50? Not in my case. In my case its about 30% bad to 70% okay. Probably ABC and Gina (though they would have to confirm) have the same ratio of good IFB church experiences to bad. That means the majority of IFB churches are solid Bible believing churches.
But if a blood pressure med has a 30% failure rate, there is an obvious problem somewhere. Lawsuits are going to abound, the government is going to step in and the people affected are going to be up in arms! (if they aren't dead or irreversibly harmed)
How big does the problem of abuse in the IFB church have to be, before IFB churches take action? How long will individual churches stand back and say: "we can't help what another church does, OUR CHURCH doesn't do things that way" all the while questioning the veracity and integrity of the VICTIM!
Debbie has already in this thread spoken of a situation in her church and plainly said "I don't believe their lies." (quote from Dcorbett post #39 of this thread) Herein lies one of the roots of the problem. We "can't believe he/she would DO that!" so the victim must be lying.
Is this a problem only in the IFB? NO!
Should we ignore the problem in the IFB because other denominations have the same thing going on? NO!
I tell my children often that bad behavior on the part of someone else doesn't excuse their own bad behavior. The IFB as a denomination should take up the discussion of abuse. Quit hiding it, quit looking the other way because that "could never happen in my church", quit abusing the victims a second time by calling them liars and worse, and start looking for solid Biblical answers to prevent pastors from becoming "little dicatators", to realize that there are wolves in sheep's clothing that seek to cause problems in the church and to prevent such problems from simply moving from one "independent" church to the next without anyone knowing of the problems they carry with them.
It would be nice if we had perfect churches, but ignoring the problems don't make them go away.
Grace&Truth
New Member
I think the issue is broad brushing all IFB Churches....this is going about it the wrong way....I believe that these problems are in every situation of life, not just our Churches, yet our Churches should be above reproach in these matters....to me the better way to deal with these issues is to admit that it can happen (yes, even in good godly IFB Churches [and homes]). So once we do admit that Christians can live in their fleshly desires instead of living in and walking in the Spirit how do we as a body of believers or individuals within the body safegaurd our husbands, sons, daughters, wives, or ourself etc. from such abuse or being one who entices one to sin in this way? What do you see as the danger or signs? Can a thread be started for this, so we can have an honest discussion about what each of us believe the dangers or signs are to look for so we can protect ourself and those we love?
You are a vile liar and I am through with you. What is most sad is that you, in your zealotry to condemn wrong have also, now, condemned right, and you, the abused, have now become the abuser! Shame on you!
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There is nothing random about the sampling. You picked three that have similar experiences to you. I could do the same with myself, Dr. Bob, and DHK and deduce from that "random sampling" that IFBs are perfect. Flawed a priori assumptions lead to flawed conclusions.
What makes you think we have not taken action?
Logical fallacy of the false dilemma. Our churches doesn't allow this to happen but we do not question the veracity and integrity of the victims. You seem to keep forgetting we are the ones who help in the spiritual and emotional healing process.
And here is the heart of the problem.
1. IFB is NOT a denomination.
2. We don't hide abuse.
3. We don't look the other way.
4. It can, and does, happen everywhere.
5. We don't abuse the victims a second time.
6. We don't call them liars, or worse.
7. We already practice a type of polity that avoids pastoral dictatorship.
8. We don't ignore problems.
So, once again, you have engaged in the fallacy of the false dilemma. Do you see the problem yet, or am I wasting my time?
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It is obvious to me that these things happen everywhere, not just in IFB churches and we, as responsible adults should take action to minimize the probability of this activity happening.
We safe guard our churches by practicing the biblical form of church polity. In addition we do background checks on everybody before we allow them to join our church. We protect our children by being honest and straightforward with them and discussing these issues with them from a very early age. Additionally we teach them methods of protecting and defending themselves from such abusers.
What we don't do, as you so aptly pointed out, is lie about all IFB churches and blame them for our failure to prepare ourselves, our families, and our churches from such vile activity.
My question is, why would anybody join such a church in the first place? What ever happened to individual responsibility?
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Honestly, I doubt we'll ever agree. You think your church is perfect so all the others (or the majority) of like churches must also be perfect. And I think you are wrong.
Lack of any meaningful data. How about you post your IFB church policies and lets see what they are? Maybe a few other IFB people from other churches could do the same. Develop a comprehensive plan that still other churches could model their own policies from. That would show that a church has taken action.
Ignoring the potential for abuse allows it happen. I'm still called a liar when I tell how I was treated by my own parents and how the church ignored it. You just called Gina a liar! and a vile one at that! Is that any way for a man to treat a sister in the Lord, or did she cease to be a sister when she questioned whether IFB practices allow abuse to be covered up?
Again, how big does a problem have to be for a collection of like minded church all bearing the name "Independent Fundamental Baptist Church" have to be before someone in that collections recognizes the problem and sees the potential cause for it?
Lack of any meaningful data. How about you post your IFB church policies and lets see what they are? Maybe a few other IFB people from other churches could do the same. Develop a comprehensive plan that still other churches could model their own policies from. That would show that a church has taken action.
Ignoring the potential for abuse allows it happen. I'm still called a liar when I tell how I was treated by my own parents and how the church ignored it. You just called Gina a liar! and a vile one at that! Is that any way for a man to treat a sister in the Lord, or did she cease to be a sister when she questioned whether IFB practices allow abuse to be covered up?
Again, how big does a problem have to be for a collection of like minded church all bearing the name "Independent Fundamental Baptist Church" have to be before someone in that collections recognizes the problem and sees the potential cause for it?
Your serious....you run a background check in order to join a church? LOL
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Since when has it ever been encouraged? And one this I include other denoms as well. We are taught to "respect our elders" and I personally was taught that means to NEVER QUESTION THEIR OPINIONS! Sorry, didn't mean to shout, but I had it shouted at me many times. Any questioning of the church elders led to questions about your committment to God.
This same thing has happened from the beginning of the RC and continues right down to today almost across every single denomination. "Well, I've got a degree so you should listen to me", "well, the church followed this practice for years, don't fix what ain't broken", and on and on.
We don't practice individual responsibility because we aren't taught to in our churches.
I can add to the stats with one reeking IFB Church in Eastern PA if you like....I also have a solution to the problem.....Just dont go to them.
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