20/20 response

Amen! I don't believe that ANY Baptist group should be lambasted if they hold the Baptist Distinctives. Doctrine is different than preferences.


Paul Washer scares me sometimes when I listen to him. He says some things that would drive any soul winning Christian away from the work.

 

No more than I hold that there are decent IFB churches.

I've yet to see anyone on this thread state that all IFB churches are bad. In fact, I clearly stated that my best church was IFB. So was my worst.

Certainly people are aware that power corrupts. The very nature of independent Baptist churches being unaccountable to others and their tendency to put their leaders on pedestals naturally leads to more instances of abuse of authority than is present in Baptist denominations that are held to higher degrees of accountability by being part of a fellowship and by having the power more evenly distributed?

TCassidy, it's true that I've not been to every IFB church. That doesn't mean I'm unaware of problems in IFB churches or that I have no reason to speak about the problems that run in them. Most people have never met the politicians they speak of, yet go to the news forum and read the conversations about politicians. That's because common sense combined with a knowledge of right and wrong and observing the results of political endeavors and their impact on our nation gives us the ability to speak for or against actions and quite often, you see a major divide between political parties. I don't know every democrat in the United States, but I know enough to believe the democratic party has many flaws and that I don't want to be associated with them. I don't know every Republican in the United States, but evidence combined with history speaks and I don't want to be associated with them either.

It's illogical to imply that before making an observation about IFB churches, I must first attend them all first before I have any right to state my observations based on experience, observation, news, an understanding of human nature and the witness of others.

 

I just had to pull this statement out because it's worth posting again. I hope those that judge others who have been through abuse read this statement and then read it again. Thanks for posting it.

BTW, nice use of the word "debacle" earlier in the thread. LOL I love a well-placed word!

 

TCassidy, where do you get that I said "most of them?" You quoted me, that was contained nowhere in the quote, yet you put it in quotes as if I said it.

I value your input, always have, but get the feeling you either misread my post or didn't give it a thorough read.

 

No, the implication isn't "most of them." The implication is that many IFB churches have the types of problems being discussed.

I started naming the ones I've been personally involved in that had some major issues. I stopped because I don't know how ethical or legal that would be. The ones that have been made public are easily found on an internet search for those truly interested.

 

The discussion is concerning IFB churches and we're talking about Baptists, not other denominations.
I don't know the percentages. Do you know the percentages of ones that do NOT have these issues? No, you don't.

Legal charges, court records, and the testimony of others is news, not gossip. Instead of turning a blind eye and stating the problem doesn't exist, do some research and speak from knowledge, not because you feel your denomination is attacked. Stop and think. ABCgrad is a pastor's wife in an IFB church. She's not attacking the denomination. Until recently, I've had my membership at IFB churches. My husband and I found ourselves led to a church that happened to be Baptist, but not IFB. The denomination is not being attacked here. The sin that exists in many of these churches is what is being attacked and viewed as wrong.

Other than that, no, I won't name the churches and people I've personally been involved with on a public forum at this time. I've gone to each church and spoken with the proper people concerning the issues in order to try to resolve the issues. One church from my childhood remains and that is my own sin. I am afraid of them and of the people who were involved. I still have five kids at home and am afraid of the consequences for them too.

Soooo...what's the last couple sins you made known and who are the people you named? Since you already did it, it's not a secret or anything, right?

 

How many times? I believe this is the first I heard of it. Being the Baptist Board and all, it's logical to figure the posters are Baptist and your eager defense of the IFB branch would definitely lead one to believe you're a part. How was I supposed to know?

How do you know all of those churches are not problematic? Have you been to them all? What gives you the power to make claims such as that when you expect me to have visited most of them before I can say boo?

As far as saying you're turning a blind eye to abuse, I said it once and I'll say it again. You're turning a blind eye to the abuse within IFB churches by denying the problem even exists. While I don't doubt your word when you say you've helped people, you've got two people on this thread who have had to pick up broken pieces and you know what? The attitude you've displayed is part of why people fear speaking out. If you honestly know what it looks like, how those people feel, you would understand what you are seeing here and your first reaction would NOT be doubt. It would not be to laugh at fear or act as if it's crazy to think that there could be harmful repercussions in speaking out. So I have to go with the moment, and at this moment you're displaying an extreme lack of empathy or caring for those abused in IFB settings and displaying animosity and mockery instead.

You're right about the need to not ignore it in other cases. However, this discussion is about that particular denom and branch, thus the focus and for me personally, that's where the majority of my experience is so that's where my focus will naturally be. Remember when your daughter was growing up? When she was a baby, you noticed other babies and that's where your experience was. As she grew, you noticed other children her age and that's where your focus was. When she was a baby, your heart was towards other kids her age, not with teenagers. When she was a teenager, that's who was in your world. Teenagers. You noticed other kids of other ages. You didn't ignore them, but matters concerning teens had priority. That's natural and normal.

 

Its called a random sample and its a basic statistical method. The pharmaseudical companies that make your aspirin do the same thing. They take out a handful of pills from the MILLIONS they create and test them for all the criteria the gov says aspirin should meet and then authoritatively tell us that the bottle on the shelve will help relieve your headache.

Alternately, the blood pressure meds they created were tested on a handful of people out of all the millions of people who potentially might take and be effected by the drug and then draw all sorts of authoritative conclusions on efficacy and side effects.

Here we have 3 random samples: Myself, ABCgrad and Gina. (I'm leaving out Tiny Tim because his sample is very similar to ABC's) Our random samples include churches from Michigan to Alabama and several points in between (myself), West Virginia (ABC) and Ohio to the west coast (Gina). Each of our experiences becomes a random sampling of churches. That makes 3 random samples. Not only can we draw conclusions from any of our samples, but comparing the 3 gives us even more infomation.

Such as: We all have good and bad experiences. Is it 50/50? Not in my case. In my case its about 30% bad to 70% okay. Probably ABC and Gina (though they would have to confirm) have the same ratio of good IFB church experiences to bad. That means the majority of IFB churches are solid Bible believing churches.

But if a blood pressure med has a 30% failure rate, there is an obvious problem somewhere. Lawsuits are going to abound, the government is going to step in and the people affected are going to be up in arms! (if they aren't dead or irreversibly harmed)

How big does the problem of abuse in the IFB church have to be, before IFB churches take action? How long will individual churches stand back and say: "we can't help what another church does, OUR CHURCH doesn't do things that way" all the while questioning the veracity and integrity of the VICTIM!

Debbie has already in this thread spoken of a situation in her church and plainly said "I don't believe their lies." (quote from Dcorbett post #39 of this thread) Herein lies one of the roots of the problem. We "can't believe he/she would DO that!" so the victim must be lying.

Is this a problem only in the IFB? NO!

Should we ignore the problem in the IFB because other denominations have the same thing going on? NO!

I tell my children often that bad behavior on the part of someone else doesn't excuse their own bad behavior. The IFB as a denomination should take up the discussion of abuse. Quit hiding it, quit looking the other way because that "could never happen in my church", quit abusing the victims a second time by calling them liars and worse, and start looking for solid Biblical answers to prevent pastors from becoming "little dicatators", to realize that there are wolves in sheep's clothing that seek to cause problems in the church and to prevent such problems from simply moving from one "independent" church to the next without anyone knowing of the problems they carry with them.

It would be nice if we had perfect churches, but ignoring the problems don't make them go away.

 

I think the issue is broad brushing all IFB Churches....this is going about it the wrong way....I believe that these problems are in every situation of life, not just our Churches, yet our Churches should be above reproach in these matters....to me the better way to deal with these issues is to admit that it can happen (yes, even in good godly IFB Churches [and homes]). So once we do admit that Christians can live in their fleshly desires instead of living in and walking in the Spirit how do we as a body of believers or individuals within the body safegaurd our husbands, sons, daughters, wives, or ourself etc. from such abuse or being one who entices one to sin in this way? What do you see as the danger or signs? Can a thread be started for this, so we can have an honest discussion about what each of us believe the dangers or signs are to look for so we can protect ourself and those we love?

 

Honestly, I doubt we'll ever agree. You think your church is perfect so all the others (or the majority) of like churches must also be perfect. And I think you are wrong.

Lack of any meaningful data. How about you post your IFB church policies and lets see what they are? Maybe a few other IFB people from other churches could do the same. Develop a comprehensive plan that still other churches could model their own policies from. That would show that a church has taken action.

Ignoring the potential for abuse allows it happen. I'm still called a liar when I tell how I was treated by my own parents and how the church ignored it. You just called Gina a liar! and a vile one at that! Is that any way for a man to treat a sister in the Lord, or did she cease to be a sister when she questioned whether IFB practices allow abuse to be covered up?

Again, how big does a problem have to be for a collection of like minded church all bearing the name "Independent Fundamental Baptist Church" have to be before someone in that collections recognizes the problem and sees the potential cause for it?

 

Your serious....you run a background check in order to join a church? LOL

 

Since when has it ever been encouraged? And one this I include other denoms as well. We are taught to "respect our elders" and I personally was taught that means to NEVER QUESTION THEIR OPINIONS! Sorry, didn't mean to shout, but I had it shouted at me many times. Any questioning of the church elders led to questions about your committment to God.

This same thing has happened from the beginning of the RC and continues right down to today almost across every single denomination. "Well, I've got a degree so you should listen to me", "well, the church followed this practice for years, don't fix what ain't broken", and on and on.

We don't practice individual responsibility because we aren't taught to in our churches.

 

I can add to the stats with one reeking IFB Church in Eastern PA if you like....I also have a solution to the problem.....Just dont go to them.