Honestly, I doubt we'll ever agree. You think your church is perfect so all the others (or the majority) of like churches must also be perfect. And I think you are wrong.
Uh, no, I don't think our church is perfect nor do I extrapolate our church's experience to all IFBs. It is you extrapolates your negative experiences to IFBs in general.
Lack of any meaningful data. How about you post your IFB church policies and lets see what they are?
I already did but will do so again.
1. Equal Elder Rule. No single man dictates to the entire group what or how things are to be done.
2. Background checks on all prospective new members. (You would be surprised at what we find, but I will deal with that in my response to Earth, Wind & Fire's post.)
3. No adult is EVER allowed to be alone with a child.
4. Two Sunday School teachers in every children's classroom.
5. Sunday school rooms with glass windows and no curtains so anyone walking down the sidewalk can see exactly what is going on inside.
6. Nobody ever makes cold or follow-up calls alone. Again, the two person rule is enforced.
7. No contact with children outside of normal service times without permission and a written statement of contact must be turned in to the church office. And, again, the two person rule is enforced.
8. Every child is taught, in the presence of their parents, about child abuse and what to do. We reinforce that nobody should ever touch or talk about their private parts, and that they can say "NO" to any adult if they feel uncomfortable in any situation. We also teach them to "tell an adult" if they are ever made to feel uncomfortable about any adult.
9. Teach them self defense methods. My 3 grandsons would probably hurt anyone who tried to molest them. They have studied the martial arts since they were 3.
10. Never dismiss anything a child says out of hand. It is better to investigate a misunderstanding than to ignore real abuse.
Maybe a few other IFB people from other churches could do the same. Develop a comprehensive plan that still other churches could model their own policies from. That would show that a church has taken action.
See above.
Ignoring the potential for abuse allows it happen.
We don't ignore it.
I am still called a liar when I tell how I was treated by my own parents and how the church ignored it.
I am sorry for your abuse but we are not all guilty even though we may be independent of any denomination, fundamental in our beliefs and baptistic in our practices.
You just called Gina a liar! and a vile one at that!
Yes. Not for reporting her abuse, but for lying about me, my church, and our practices.
Is that any way for a man to treat a sister in the Lord, or did she cease to be a sister when she questioned whether IFB practices allow abuse to be covered up?
She is still a sister, but a lying one. Go back and read what she said. She said I turned a blind eye to abuse. I corrected her and explained what we have been doing for the past 25 years. She then said the same thing again even though she knew it was a lie. That makes her a liar.
1. IFB is NOT a denomination. No, its merely a collection of independent church that just happens to call themselves "independent" and "fundamental" but each one defines those words different. Talk about logical fallacies, either you are independent and fundamental or you need to drop the words from your church names and make it a description rather than a title.
Uh, well, I hate to be the one to tell you but the name of our church is "First Baptist Church." There is nothing else in our title. "Independent" and "fundamental" are simply descriptive of our association and faith.
You also need to recognize that standing back and saying "we aren't responsible for what that church does" instead of condemning their practices, condones what they do.
You need to understand that I have never stood back and said "we aren't responsible for what that church does." What I have done is ask, several times, what we could be expected to do about a church 3000 miles away that we never even heard of? What do you expect us to do about a man 3000 miles away whom we have never heard of?
Westboro wouldn't exist if good Christians surrounded them every time they tried to protest.
I have done so, 3 times, as a member of the Patriot Guards. How many times have YOU surrounded the Westboro bunch?
Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away!
I don't ignore the problem so I still don't see why you keep making that accusation.
2. We don't hide abuse. If you are talking about we as your local church, good.
I am talking about our local church and other local churches of like faith and practice.
If you are talking about we as a collection of "independent, fundamental" Baptist churches then you are speaking without experience since YOU HAVEN'T ATTENDED EACH AND EVERY IFB CHURCH OUT THERE!
I have not attended each and every IFB church out there. But after 37 years in the ministry as an evangelist, pastor, and educator I have first hand experience with a couple thousand IFB churches, none of what are as you describe them.
And anyway, you aren't a denomination so how dare you speak for all those independent churches?
I speak only of those I am familiar with. Can you say the same?
3. We don't look the other way. See what I wrote above.
See what I wrote above.
4. It can, and does, happen everywhere. Yes it does. No doubt about it, but this discussion focuses on IFB churches whether or not you like talking about it.
Why do you only focus on IFB churches. By focusing only on IFB churches are you condoning abuse in the others?
5. We don't abuse the victims a second time. See above, you can't speak for churches you don't have first hand knowledge about. You made the rule, abide by it.
I do and that is what I am talking about.
6. We don't call them liars, or worse. What was it you just called Gina?
I don't call those who report abuse liars. But I do call liars liars. Gina lied, therefore she is a liar.
7. We already practice a type of polity that avoids pastoral dictatorship. Good lets see a copy of your practices.
See the above list.
8. We don't ignore problems. Really, I guess saying "it doesn't happen in our church makes it a reality for all the others." I wonder?
Why would you make such an unwarranted assumption? I never said any such thing. In fact, I said, and you even quoted, "It can, and does, happen everywhere." Are you being entirely honest in this discussion?
Again, how big does a problem have to be for a collection of like minded church all bearing the name "Independent Fundamental Baptist Church" have to be before someone in that collections recognizes the problem and sees the potential cause for it?
Again you assume facts not in evidence. I am aware of the problem and been "doing something about it" for over 35 years. If this abuse occurred (and I don't doubt it did) why didn't you tell me so I could do something about it? Were you trying to cover it up?
See how easy it is to blame others with a broad brush?
