Pentecostal Baptist?

Actually, in example in Acts, ALL heard the Gospel message preached to them in "own" language...
its appears that Peter was speaking Hebrew/Greek whatever he was speaking, his natural language, but God enables each of them to "get it in" their own tongue!

 

Paul made it clear certain gifts would cease.

1 Corithians 13:
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Verse 10 of course is the key verse, did Paul say when He who is perfect is come or was it that which is perfect? We need to examine what Paul meant by "THAT" which is perfect?

So is there anything which is from the spiritual side perfect today?

Unless you are a Pretirist the Kingdom hasn't come. For the PRE-Trib, Pre-Mil and the A-mil crowd non of this has come. So what was Paul refering to. I have been taught and studied and this is what the conclussion was.

Revelation 22: 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

It appears this was the last "PROPHECY" in writing God would give. This would cover the God given "KNOWLEDGE" to write scripture.

So when "THAT" the end of God giving Knowledge or Prophecy to write new scriture, the Canon of scripture is come and complete, then those things which are in part will cease. The temporary spiritual gifts of the 1st Century Church ended when John finished the book of Revelation so that would include tongues all the things which are in part. For the Bible the Canon of scripture is sealed and complete with the book of Rvelation.

 

Pentecost + Baptist is like never taking a foward step. We cannot remain at Pentecost. We have moved along. A baptist is a baptist, or he is not. Simple as that.

Cheers,

Jim

 

The "that which is perfect is come" is the return of Christ. We do not now know as we are known.

 

So then we have more scripture to come, through Prophecy and Knowledge to write? These seem to have ceased also when John finished writting, unless we count the Mormans adding to scripture. From Paul's writings he never called our Saviour "THAT" He always made it very clear when speaking of Christ return. 1 Thessalonians 4 shows how he notice verse 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

When the Lord himself shall descend. Wouldn't Paul have said when the "Lord himself" has come then those things in part will cease? Paul always refered to our Lord by Name or by title so to say the "THAT" is His return doesn't fit Paul's style of writting.

 

The Bible does not have to declare itself closed. Neither does it. The Bible has not been declared closed and gifts have no been declared ceased. "That"is most likely referring to the event rather than the person. As far as your "style" argument it is false to equate the context of "that" to a writing style.

 

Revelation 22: 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Seems to be a declaration that God has finished "Prophecy" don't add or take away from this book. Since Revelation is the final book God is saying it is finished, complete, perfect as far as Prophecy goes. Paul said when that which is perfect (complete) is come then that which is in part will cease. We see with the completion of Revelation prophecy has ceased, we only have interpretation of prophecy today. No new inspired books of scripture have been written since that time.

 

Which is limited to the book of Revelation. Where do you get the idea that John had the completion of the cannon in mind? And again even with the completion of the cannon we still do not know as we are known v.13.

 

Yes. It's not uncommon at all.

I think it depends on a lot of things. Even though it shouldn't be, I just can't imagine it not becoming a divisive issue at some point and I don't see how he could honestly say that he agrees with our constitution.

I can't help but wonder why he would want to join a church who's stated belief is one of cessationism and who preaches cessationism from the pulpit. As somebody else pointed out, even if he was able to join, he would not be eligible for a role in leadership.

 

In my opinion, this is far worse than speaking in tongues.

 

You are making the huge assumption that Revelation was the last book of the New Testament that was written.

I suspect the last book written was actually the Gospel of John, written sometime around 90 A.D. or so.

I agree wholeheartedly with MandyM on these expository issues. He is dead center of a scripturally honest and balanced viewpoint in my opinion. He is not trying to say more than scripture says.

I know a lot of people want to find scriptural justification to say that the canon of scripture is closed so they have a snappy answer to give when the Mormons or other cultists come to their door, but I just don't think it's there. We must not let our desire to oppose false doctrine cause us to create false doctrine of our own.

The way you deal with the Mormon issue is to simply point out that if there is additional scriptural revelation, it must, of necessity, be congruent with what has already been revealed to saints from the time of Christ. Mormon beliefs utterly fail in this regard. Then Mormons will protest that the "plain and precious" teachings have been removed. You can simply point of that even if that were true, what is left still condemns Mormon doctrine. Then they will often protest that someone has changed the Bible to deceive us. Then you simply point out that they are being hypocritical then to quote the King James Bible as an authority without actually trusting it, and then trying to sell you on some new revelation when all the authority they have is a contradictory story from Joseph Smith about angels, golden tablets, and how he is the only one with the gospel, and their own person testimony about how "they've prayed about it" and believe it to be true. The burden of proof is on them and they have nothing substantial to offer.

 

Sometimes I think we take on bad or weak arguments to defend against false teaching. We lose credibility when we do that contrary to what we might think. When it comes to things like tongues we can stick to the nature and purpose of them, which is where the real argument lies rather than take up bad arguments.

 

So then you believe the bible can be added too?

Revelation 1: 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Who gave the Revelation to John? Jesus Christ and with that we have the final word of Prophecy from God.

1 Corinthians 13: 8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Paul said Prophecy would be done away with, verse 9 Prophesy is in part verse 10 the things in part would be done away. If this hasn't occured then we should have Christians with new knowledge and prophecy to add new scripture to the bible. Do we have this today? Are christians adding scripture to the bible, or do we now see commentaries on scripture with someones interpretation of the writters meaning?

Verse 11 Paul talks about how as mature believers we put away childish things, is he saying those things in part are childish or is he transitioning to a new topic?
Then in verse 12 not 13 he transitions to his being in eternity. With the transition from the things in part he goes into things that we should do and then into our home in eternity. Remeber man has broken scripture into chapters and verses Paul wrote this in letter form and the transition in the letter are clear. Paul is quite clear when he arrived in heaven he said this would be where "then shall I know even as also I am known." He would have knowledge and know as also he is known. Nothing to do with the that which is perfect he spoke of in verse 10.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Verse 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

Well my doctrine is not based on a fear that someone can claim new revelation. That question does not come into play in determining the meaning of the passages you have listed, nor does it come into my thinking in determining the validity of sign gifts today.

 

Key phrase that you wrote here is "to write new revelation"
Agree with you 100% that there is NO new revelation being given y God today through the opeartion of the sign gifts, and would also say that the "official" offices of Apostles and prophets also ceased when the Bible came to us... BUT
There is a difference between revelation being given, and the gifts functioning today still...

Would see from Scriptures one can had gifts to teach. preach. administrate etc also in SAME listing are tongues propheccing healings etc...

Seems that God gave us the proper outline/procedures to check IF gifts are valid, and being used in Biblical order /pattern...

Would say that MOST of what passes on both Christian radio/tv todays as gifts is bogus, and outright satanic in others, as they are taught by false teachers with 'doctrines of demons"

So satan can counterfeit the "real ones" and use his teacher to sow doubt and discord among the bethren!

Satan wants us to either say ALL gifts operating today are satanic, or else be gullible and accept them all as being from the Lord!

 

Would have to agree witht he brother here in that the Canon has been determined and closed off now...

Still have spiritual gifts though, until second coming of Christ, when all will than cease, has not be needed anymore...

the revelatory aspects to the gifts have indded ceased for today, as we all have the more sure Word to guide and instruct us, being always infallible, its just that there is NO biblical reason to say they all ceased, but HOW they function as being "inspired by God to reveal" has!

 

Well I am glad you have a firm position on that. But to be credible you need scripture in context to back that up. Far to many times Christians, and even on this board, try to speak for God in ways He never gives any information.

 

Yes it does. As has been pointed out: "If any man shall add unto the words of this book God shall add unto him..." The Book of Revelation, written ca. 98 A.D. was the last book of the canon of Scripture to be written, and thus that verse not only applies to Revelation but is applicable to all the Bible. It is a closed book. It declares itself closed.

Consider also that every time revelation was given by God it was accompanied by signs and miracles.
1. When Moses was given the Ten Commandments and wrote down the Law, he demonstrated that he was God's spokesmen by the signs and wonders that he did before Pharaoh. He also performed many more before the people of Israel as they wandered through the wilderness. He was the author of the first five books of the Bible. He was God's spokesman, and God gave him the ability to do signs and wonders to demonstrate that what he said were the very words of God.

2. Then came the prophets. Consider the miracles of Elijah and Elisha. Most of the writing prophets were contemporary with these men. These men were symbolic of all of the prophets. God gave them the ability to bring forth signs and wonders. Scripture was written during their lifetime and the lifetimes of the other prophets.

3. After the last prophet died there was a silence of 400 years when God did not speak to any prophet. The silence was deafening. No one received any revelation.

4. Then finally God broke his silence and raised up a prophet, the fore-runner of Jesus Christ, John the Baptist. During this time Christ was born. Many miracles were done by the hand of Christ and by his apostles. During the time of Christ and the Apostolic Age the NT was written. It was accompanied by signs and wonders. Those signs and wonders ceased by the end of the first century as canon of Scripture was completed, and closed. There is no more need of such spiritual gifts. They have ceased. We have the Bible instead. God has given us His Word.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
--God did speak through visions, dreams, burning bushes, miraculous events, etc., but no longer. That age is past. He now speaks to us through His Son, as he is revealed to us through His Word.

Paul knew what the sign of an Apostle was, as he was one:
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Corinthians 12:12)
--signs, wonders, and mighty deeds. These are not seen today.

The writer of the Book of Hebrews testifies:
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Hebrews 2:3-4)
--God bore witness to the apostles signs, wonders different miracles, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These were all during the Apostolic Age of the first century. They are no longer in existence today, as we no longer have apostles today. They authenticated the apostles and their message and verified their message as the true message of God, setting them and their message apart from all others; all false messages. Theirs was from God.

In 1Cor.13:8ff., it speaks of spiritual gifts ceasing particularly tongues, prophecy, and revelatory knowledge. In verse 8 it says that they will cease. The only question is, when? The answer is: "when that which is "perfect" is come. The word perfect is in the neuter gender in the Greek, ruling out anything referring to Christ. The word "perfect" is the Greek word "teleios" other wise translated "complete." When that which is complete is come, then that which is in part shall pass away. There is a contrast here. There are partial or temporary gifts contrasted to semi-permanent gifts which in turn are contrasted to one permanent gift.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (1 Corinthians 13:13)
--The one gift that is permanent and that will continue on throughout eternity is love. It will never fail; it is the greatest of the three. It is permanent.
--Faith and hope are "semi-permanent," that is they too will end at some point in time. When? When Christ comes again. The Bible states that "we walk by faith and not by sight." When Christ comes we shall see him as he is. Faith will end. We will no longer walk by faith. We will see him. The same is true of hope. We hope for that which we see not. But when we see him we will have no more reason to hope. Hope will cease when Christ comes.

What about tongues, prophecy, and revelatory knowledge. They were temporary gifts that ceased when "that which was complete" (the Bible) came. There was no more need of them at that time. God gave to us his word and those gifts ceased. They ceased according to his word; they ceased according to history.

No one has ever demonstrated the gift of tongues since that time.
No one has ever demonstrated the gift of miracles since that time.
No one has ever demonstrated the gift of healing since that time.

No one has ever given any viable evidence since that time of the above sign gifts being performed--ever!
They have ceased.

 

Well let's look at the language gift (tongues). The language spoken was a known human language, no where does it say it wasn't. Peter spokse at Pentacost and the pople heard him in their own native tongue (language). So the need to speak in a language was not for the speaker but for the hearer. The Prophecy gift and the knowledge gift were given so that scriputre could be written. So let's look at our day.
1. When a missionary goes into a foriegn country he must study the langauge of that nation and learn it, why if the gift of languages still exist today do they need to learn a new language? This isn't just Baptist but the charismatic denominations also. They go and learn languages. The true gift of languages as seen in scripture was always given so the hearer could understand the gospel. Paul said when a language was spoken it must have an interpreter present, why so those who didn't know that language could be told what was said. If it didn't edify the church then the person was to remain silent. The true gift of languages has ceased in our day.

2. Prophecy - there are no prophets today. No one giving new revelation, no new scripture. Jesus gave us the last prophecy in the book of revelation, scripture is clear on that. Some claim to be prophets today like the guy who is prophysing that the rapture will occur the 21st of May. He has predicted it several times in the past and has been proven incorrect, so he definitely isn't a true prophet. Men interpret scripture today and explain the menaning and some call that prophecy but there has been no new prophecy given since Jesus the Alpha and Omega of scripture gave us Revelation.

3. Knowledge - the knowledge to write new scripture. Scripture that is given by the Holy Spirit. Scripture that edifies the church. We have all we are going to get. So the gift of the knowledge to write scripture has ceased.

Now Paul said when "that which is Perfect", the greek could be translated complete, has come, then "THAT" which is part will cease. He made it abundantly clear what was in part and tongues (langauages), Prophecy and Language were in part. Prophecy stopped when Revelation was written. Revelation is believed to have been written around 90 to 95 A.D. the book of John in 90 A.D. this would ahve completed the canon. Since that time there have been now books written and inspired by the Holy Spirt for preservation than our current Bible. This seems very clear the "THAT" refered to would be known to us when those things that were in part ceased. When did "PROPHECY" and "KNOWLEDGE" cease?

If they have ceased so too has the gift of "TONGUES".

I see that all ceasing with the book of Revelation and a "PERFECT" or "COMPLETE" Canon of scripture.

 

Agree with you that when the full Bible was revelaed to man, with the official canon of scripture that the revelatory aspects to the Gifts ceased, no longer needed...

But are you saying that there is no longer any need for the Gifts to operate in biblical order in order to bring encouragement/edification/building to local Body of Christ?

To me hard to describe the distinction, but there appears to be where offices of Apostles/prophets in their revelatory aspect ceased/no longer needed, as sign gifts like Apostles weilded... BUT

can we with condifence say god lo longer heals today, that he cannot lead/guide through ANY other than Bible today?