If we our bodies don't rise we will never be completely saved and be like Him. That is the bottom line. God created man in His image from the beginning and if (which God knew he wouldn't) man had not eaten ofthe tree of knowledge of good and evil man would have lived for ever with body, soul and spirit. God is Father, Son and Spirit which part is not God? If we are to be complete for eternity fully saved then we must be complete as Adam was created complete in the image of God and therefore a three part being yet one in essence. To not have the body would then make us have an incomplete salvation. Bottom line.
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Resurrection
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If we our bodies don't rise we will never be completely saved and be like Him. That is the bottom line. God created man in His image from the beginning and if (which God knew he wouldn't) man had not eaten ofthe tree of knowledge of good and evil man would have lived for ever with body, soul and spirit. God is Father, Son and Spirit which part is not God? If we are to be complete for eternity fully saved then we must be complete as Adam was created complete in the image of God and therefore a three part being yet one in essence. To not have the body would then make us have an incomplete salvation. Bottom line.
I am so tired of answering that question.
No, no, a thousand times NO.
Don't jump in the middle of a discussion and ask something stupid like that and expect to be taken seriously.
Not at all. It is an attempt to get the other person to actually think about what his position entails.
Not at all. It is an attempt to get the other person to actually think about what his position entails.
So what about the nail prints and the hole in Jesus' side that were there when appeared to His disciples after the resurrection? Were they just illusions to help Thomas but have now disappeared?
So what about the nail prints and the hole in Jesus' side that were there when appeared to His disciples after the resurrection? Were they just illusions to help Thomas but have now disappeared?
I already answered this question. This is why writing to you is a waste of time. You show no sign of responding to what I actually write.
Ask someone else.
God is spirit. Those who worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth. John 4. We know that God is essentially unchangeable, Mal. 3:6; Psa. 102:27; Heb. 1:12.
There was a time when, in order to save us - to save those whom the Father gave, to be more precise - the Son had to take upon Himself our physical nature, Heb. 2:13-15. It was necessary for Him, in the course of "fulfilling all righteousness", to obey perfectly and suffer accordingly in order to procure our salvation. This is why He also had to be resurrected physically. He showed and demonstrated His physical body to Thomas and others.
But there was no need for Him to return physically. He returned in AD 70 in the same essence as He always was, as a King "eternal, immortal, invisible". The hymn is also to the point:
"Immortal, invisible, God only wise,
In light inaccessible hid from our eyes"
For those who say that Christ is also, at this point in time and from this time onward, existing in a physical body, I would ask this question: Did He have this same body also before the Incarnation? Yes, there are Christophanies. But other than that?
How about before recorded history?
How about when there was only Trinity, self-communicating, self-loving? Was One of the Three physical then?
I don't think anyone would say this. I hope not. But if they don't affirm this then they have another problem. In a very real and fundamental way God - the unchangeable God - has changed. Drastically.
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Christ must return to sit on the throne of David:
Isaiah 9:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.
First verse 7 His government and peace shall have no end, upon the throne of David, so when Has Christ sat upon the throne od David?
Danial 12: 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
When has the abomination that maketh desolate been set up and then Israel found rest at the end? Notice the Abomination that maketh desolute would only last 3 1/2 years. That would be the 3 1/2 years of the last week of Daniels 70 weeks. 69 weeks have been completed, the last week is yet to come. This was not fulfilled in 70 A.D. or else Israel would be living in peace.
Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Verse 15 is very clear the Abomination will stand in the temple, the temple being destroyed did not fulfill this.
Revelation 13: 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
The image of the beast is set up in the temple and that is the abomination that maketh desolate. We haven't had a time in which we couldn't buy nor sell unless we had the mark ofthe beast in our forehead or on our right hand, that didn't even occur in 70 A.D.
So when will this prophecy be fulfilled?
When will the Prophecy in Ezekial 38 and 39 be fulfilled in which Gog and Magog, Meschah (Moscow) and Tubal (Tubolsk), with Syria, Libya and Persia (Iran) attack Israel and then be destroyed by fire from Heaven, when will this be fufilled?
Christ in three of four Gospels said the Abomination that maketh desolate would stand in Israels temple, that means there has to be a temple for it to stand in and Daniel said it would stand there for 3 1/2 years before peace would come to Israel. When will that be fulfilled?
Notice all of this is physical not spiritual, Ezekial 38 says Israel will bury the dead for 7 months, when has the Nation Israel had to bury the dead of Gog, Magog, Iran, Libya and syria for 7 months?
None of this occured prior to 70 A.D. and it ewasn't fulfilled in 70 A.D. so this must come to pass.
! thessalonians 4: 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When was this fulfilled? When has Christ returned for those dead and living people. If the body isn't ressurected then how come we haven't heard of millions of dead bodies turning up all over the world with no explanation?
No record of Christ having descended with a shout ahd the voice of an archangel and with the trump of God, when did that happen? Not recorded in 70 A.D.. Roman came and conquered Israel destroyed the temple as Christ had prophsied not one stone left upon another. But He also said the abomination of desolation which Daniel spoke of would stand in the temple? We have no record that any such thing stood in the temple so when will this occur?
There are too many prophecies Old and New Testament yet to be fulfilled for everything to have occured prior to or at 70 A.D.
If it all culminated in 70 A.D. then we need to throw out all the scripture that shows events to happen and didn't, for Christ must come and reign on Davids literal throne.
Revelation 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
This says Christ reigns on the earth and it says He will in the end which you say occured in 70 A.D. sit upon the Great White Throne and judge the nations, the unbelievers of all time. This certainly hasn't occured and yet you say that Christ is on His throne right now in heaven that would mean Satan would be locked in the bottomless pit, at least he should have been from 70 A.D. until 1070 A.D. but he wasn't and isn't so when will satan be locked away for 1000 years?
Christ must return to sit on the throne of David:
Isaiah 9:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.
First verse 7 His government and peace shall have no end, upon the throne of David, so when Has Christ sat upon the throne od David?
Danial 12: 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
When has the abomination that maketh desolate been set up and then Israel found rest at the end? Notice the Abomination that maketh desolute would only last 3 1/2 years. That would be the 3 1/2 years of the last week of Daniels 70 weeks. 69 weeks have been completed, the last week is yet to come. This was not fulfilled in 70 A.D. or else Israel would be living in peace.
Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Verse 15 is very clear the Abomination will stand in the temple, the temple being destroyed did not fulfill this.
Revelation 13: 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
The image of the beast is set up in the temple and that is the abomination that maketh desolate. We haven't had a time in which we couldn't buy nor sell unless we had the mark ofthe beast in our forehead or on our right hand, that didn't even occur in 70 A.D.
So when will this prophecy be fulfilled?
When will the Prophecy in Ezekial 38 and 39 be fulfilled in which Gog and Magog, Meschah (Moscow) and Tubal (Tubolsk), with Syria, Libya and Persia (Iran) attack Israel and then be destroyed by fire from Heaven, when will this be fufilled?
Christ in three of four Gospels said the Abomination that maketh desolate would stand in Israels temple, that means there has to be a temple for it to stand in and Daniel said it would stand there for 3 1/2 years before peace would come to Israel. When will that be fulfilled?
Notice all of this is physical not spiritual, Ezekial 38 says Israel will bury the dead for 7 months, when has the Nation Israel had to bury the dead of Gog, Magog, Iran, Libya and syria for 7 months?
None of this occured prior to 70 A.D. and it ewasn't fulfilled in 70 A.D. so this must come to pass.
! thessalonians 4: 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When was this fulfilled? When has Christ returned for those dead and living people. If the body isn't ressurected then how come we haven't heard of millions of dead bodies turning up all over the world with no explanation?
No record of Christ having descended with a shout ahd the voice of an archangel and with the trump of God, when did that happen? Not recorded in 70 A.D.. Roman came and conquered Israel destroyed the temple as Christ had prophsied not one stone left upon another. But He also said the abomination of desolation which Daniel spoke of would stand in the temple? We have no record that any such thing stood in the temple so when will this occur?
There are too many prophecies Old and New Testament yet to be fulfilled for everything to have occured prior to or at 70 A.D.
If it all culminated in 70 A.D. then we need to throw out all the scripture that shows events to happen and didn't, for Christ must come and reign on Davids literal throne.
Revelation 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
This says Christ reigns on the earth and it says He will in the end which you say occured in 70 A.D. sit upon the Great White Throne and judge the nations, the unbelievers of all time. This certainly hasn't occured and yet you say that Christ is on His throne right now in heaven that would mean Satan would be locked in the bottomless pit, at least he should have been from 70 A.D. until 1070 A.D. but he wasn't and isn't so when will satan be locked away for 1000 years?
I had to double-check to see whether you really meant all of this as a response to my post. And, sure enough, there was my post quoted - all the verses totally ignored. Instead of answering my main Scripture-backed point, that God cannot change, you think to just bombard me with a shovelful of what-about-these verses.
Not interested. There is no interaction or response - not the least - to my points. Cutting-and-pasting is not answering.
God the Son had appearances in OT times as "Angel of the LORD"
those were angelic form/body that were discarded once went back to Heaven...
What was BRAND NEW for God the Som was once incarnated into a body of human flesh to dwell among us... that was NOT same body as before, unique body both God/man
FOREVER will be Jesus Christ, and will always have that same physical body...
Totally different from OT times, as this time God and Humanity united permenantly...
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Tom,
A couple of posters ask a simple yes or no question and you give a long rambling answer, complete with cut and paste and what do you when they press you for a simple answer? You get all excited and accuse them of cutting and pasting.
If you have the truth of the Bible on your side it should be easy to give a simple answer to a simple question.
If anyone were to ask me if I believe in a future bodly return of Christ or a future resurrection of the saved, my answer would be...yes.
Thomas
A couple of posters ask a simple yes or no question and you give a long rambling answer, complete with cut and paste and what do you when they press you for a simple answer? You get all excited and accuse them of cutting and pasting.
If you have the truth of the Bible on your side it should be easy to give a simple answer to a simple question.
If anyone were to ask me if I believe in a future bodly return of Christ or a future resurrection of the saved, my answer would be...yes.
Thomas
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I really appreciate that you are tackling the topic.
But don't you see that for God to permanently changed there is now two problems?
1. The Bible says several times that God does not change.
2. Any change must necessarily be for the better or worse. But, since God was already perfect from eternity past, how can God have improved by being "united" as God and humanity?
But int he Incarnation, God DID change, became something different than what he was before in Eternity past...
God was still ver God, BUT he also took on Human flesh/nature in person of Jesus...
So God was still father Son Spirit so the essense of God never has changed BUT he also now took on forever Humanity nature...
Not a question of God improving, just that God decided to take on huamnity, to go along with His divinity in the Incarnation!
IF God really never changed then jesus was not God, and there was no incarnation!
And he was NOT the sin bearer as only God death could pay the atonment required to redeem man from the Curse of the law!
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But there is a difference between the Incarnation and how God is now - and how He was before. Yes, the Incarnation was a real change, but this is not the lasting change that God has no need of. When it says that God is unchangeable the Scriptures go beyond to what happened at the incarnation.
God decided to forever unite with Humanity through person of jesus Christ..
God-man dual natures for all eternity...
hebrews calls Jesus our Great High priest right now interceding on our behalf, one who applied His blood to the heavely temple when he ascended....
John saw Jesus in his glorified bodily form, as he could once again Fully manifest glory of God "hidden' while upon earth...
We did see a glimpse of that glory in transfigration, and that WAS in his physical bodily form...
Is Jesus right now in heaven in same body God raised from the Dead anfd he ascended to heaven with?
John 4: 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
As believers we do worship Him in spirit, our human spirit to prove we are children of God.
Romans 8:15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Since we become Spiritually alive (regenerated) then we do worship Him in Spirit and in truth.
God is unchangeable, His plan has always been the same, blood was required for sin, the Son paid the price and poured his blood on rthe mercy seat for us.
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thomas15
Well-Known Member
In the Holy Bible, Acts 1:11 it tells us that when Jesus returns it will be in like manner from which he ascended. You know Tom, we agree we can't can't see a spirit, but three of the Apostles did see glorified spiritual bodies on the mount of transfiguation. The Apostles did see, talk to, and touch the risen Christ.
Peter quoted King david on pentacost, to show that God would NOT allow his physical body to suffer decay, but to be raised up
Physical body, physical resurrection, still with scars and wounds
Think we have to watch out we don't drift into JW territory, where the physical body of jesus died and decayed and was raised in a "spiriotual form/body" as archangel Micheal!
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