Resurrection

[JesusFan]

Ah, the Tinkerbell Diversion. An attempt to trivialize my position by some ridiculous association.

Acts 1:11 relates to how Christ was to return (adverb), not His nature. This is actually a defense for the Preterist view, but I have been over this so many times.

"What did he see?" That is a good question. Let us go to the Bible and find out. Previous verse and then your verse that you cherry-picked:

"But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, 'Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!'"

He had a vision of God. Just like Isaiah seeing the Lord high and lifted up, Ezekiel and John seeing a mutually similar vision of the Lord. John also saw a sword coming out of His mouth.

Is that sword still coming out of His mouth? Is He still riding a white horse? I am asking these rhetorical questions to show that visions demonstrate spiritual realities by visual symbols. "Visual", at least to the one having the vision. The Jews in Acts 7 did not see the vision, but were incensed by Stephen's account of the vision.

The bottom line is that we do not treat visions as cut-and-dried theological statements of fact. Like for the parables, we need to study out the central purpose of the vision, not glean the details and make unintended connections.

Once again, not denying any of this.

This is tiresome. I think at this point you are just being willfully asinine. If you had half a memory, and the willingness to use it charitably (like you would expect from moderators) you would remember that I didn't deny Christ's testimony. You are just trying, transparently, with a JW brush.

ditto

Cherry-picking again. Like I wrote to someone else (who also didn't respond to this point) read the context. In this case, the next 5 or so verses. I also quoted Luke 6:40:

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be like his master."

In both cases, and in about 6 or 7 parallel passages, being like Christ is shown to be our imitation of those attributes of His that are communicable. It has nothing to do with similar natures. Note: I am not denying a commonality of a spiritual body, just that the passages you cited is not saying that.


And this is another passage that I have gone into in greater detail. In fact it is one of the strongest proofs of the Preterist position, not the futurist's.

Just curious...
When do you see the "New Birth" happening in life of a Christian?
Do you see "being born again" as a second/spiritual resurrection stage?

When did/will ALL of the dead bodies of saints come out of their graves and meet Lord in the Air?
In History, when did Jesus with voice of Archangel, and Trump of God happen?

 

[asterisktom]

Just curious...

A good thing.

When do you see the "New Birth" happening in life of a Christian?
Do you see "being born again" as a second/spiritual resurrection stage?

New birth is when someone has faith in Christ. If any man is in Christ he is a new creation.

When did/will ALL of the dead bodies of saints come out of their graves and meet Lord in the Air?

Dead bodies will come up out of the graves and meet the Lord. God is not the God of the dead, but the living.

In History, when did Jesus with voice of Archangel, and Trump of God happen?

It happened when He came in both judgment and rescue, in AD 70. Please note the context of the passages you are alluding to.

 

[DHK]

Ah, the Tinkerbell Diversion. An attempt to trivialize my position by some ridiculous association.

Thanks for answering Tom. You are right, I should not have been so overly sarcastic. I apologize.

Acts 1:11 relates to how Christ was to return (adverb), not His nature. This is actually a defense for the Preterist view, but I have been over this so many times.

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11)
--The manner in which he went was visible and physical.
This is the same manner in which he would come again. How do you get anything else out of this. This is what the angels were emphasizing to the apostles. Why are you gazing? He is coming again! And he is coming in the same visible way that he went! It won't be invisible. He is saying the exact opposite of what you believe.
You said (how) Christ is to return. The how is visibly and physically. What else could the "how" refer to?

"What did he see?" That is a good question. Let us go to the Bible and find out. Previous verse and then your verse that you cherry-picked:

"But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, 'Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!'"

He had a vision of God. Just like Isaiah seeing the Lord high and lifted up, Ezekiel and John seeing a mutually similar vision of the Lord. John also saw a sword coming out of His mouth.

Is that sword still coming out of His mouth? Is He still riding a white horse? I am asking these rhetorical questions to show that visions demonstrate spiritual realities by visual symbols. "Visual", at least to the one having the vision. The Jews in Acts 7 did not see the vision, but were incensed by Stephen's account of the vision.

The bottom line is that we do not treat visions as cut-and-dried theological statements of fact. Like for the parables, we need to study out the central purpose of the vision, not glean the details and make unintended connections.

Can you point to one verse in Acts 7 where Stephen indicates that he is having a vision. That is not there; not in the context anywhere. You can say that about the vision of Isaiah, about what John saw, but you can't say that about Stephen say.

Secondly, was Stephen lying? Are you doubting what he saw? Vision or no vision, why would he say those words. For example Peter had a vision of a sheet filled with unclean animals. In the vision did he see what he told us, or was he deceived and saw something else. Is the Word of God accurate and telling the truth about what he saw? Is the Word of God accurate in recording what Stephen saw? Did Stephen see Jesus Christ standing or not? Why would Stephen lie?

Thirdly, what else does the Bible say about Christ?
Where is Christ right now?
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)
--Right now he is in a resurrection body seated on the right hand of the throne of God. He has a physical body. He is sitting down.

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Hebrews 1:3)
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Peter 3:22)
--But when it came to Stephen he stood.

Cherry-picking again. Like I wrote to someone else (who also didn't respond to this point) read the context. In this case, the next 5 or so verses. I also quoted Luke 6:40:

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be like his master."

In both cases, and in about 6 or 7 parallel passages, being like Christ is shown to be our imitation of those attributes of His that are communicable. It has nothing to do with similar natures. Note: I am not denying a commonality of a spiritual body, just that the passages you cited is not saying that.

1John 3:2 says two things:
1. We shall see him as he is. This points to his visible and physical body when he returns.
2. We shall be like him. This truth is connected with the previous one. How shall we be like him? We shall be like him in the way that he returns, with a physical and visible body. If that is not the way that we will be like him, then you are taking it out of its context, for that is what the context is speaking of.
"He that has this hope in him purifies himself." The second coming; the actual visible and physical return of Christ, that Blessed hope of all believers, has been a purifying hope in the believers life.

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)
--The passage I cited (1John 3:2) does say that. That is its teaching. That is exactly what John set out to teach. How do you get anything else out of it.

You refer to the next five verses or so. I already referred to verse four.
If you note in the KJV, verse five has a paragraph marker, where John goes on and begins a different thought in the chapter.

And this is another passage that I have gone into in greater detail. In fact it is one of the strongest proofs of the Preterist position, not the futurist's.

--We have discussed it already, needless to say it speaks of two different bodies, two different kinds of flesh: one corruptible, one incorruptible; one mortal, one immortal; one terrestial, one celestial, etc.
In other words we now have a corruptible body that houses a temporary earthly body but someday we will have a resurrected body, but a body nevertheless.

 

[percho]

1 Corinthians 15:49-55 is still yet future, For the trump hasn't sounded the church (i.e. the bride) hasn't been taken to heaven just yet. Nicodemus believed in Jesus as Messiah.

John 19:
38And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

39And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

40Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.


Joseph of Arimathaea was a disciple or believer in secret Nicodemus was with him when they came to bury Jeses. So do you think that a non-believer would risk power, position and prestige to help bury this blasphemer as Jesus was labled if he weren't a believer in secret like Joseph? If you say yes they would risk it then Nicodemus may not have believed if you no they wouldn't have risk it then Nicodemus was a believer a disciple of Christ.


As for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the other O.T. saints we see this in
Matthew 24: 29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect of the O.T. will be resurrected after the tribulation according to Christ.
We see also,
Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

In Matthew 24, Revelation 19 we see the ressurection of the O.T. saints who come and praise the Lamb at His marriage to His Bride (the church) "the voice of a great multitude". Verse the marriage of the Lamb has come. Then verse 9 we see the angel say "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb" this is the O.T. saints at the marriage of the Lamb to the Bride the Church.

In then 20 we see the ressurection of the Tribulation Saints, verse 4 is the key that shows us this. Verse 5 says that the unbeliever will not be raised until after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

So that the ressurection of the Church is seen in 1 Corinthians 15:49-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Christ promise to those who remain faithful and patient in waiting for His return, He will keep them from the hour of temptation or tribulation. The church will be kept from the tribulation.
Christ also says here be careful that no man take thy crown,

1 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing

If you continue to watch for His appearing you will receive the crown of righteousness.

Revelation 4: 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Notice John heard the voice of trumpet and the call come up hither, notice 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says " For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" the church comes up hither.

So the ressurection of the Church will precede that of the O.T. saint and the tribulation saint and we will not see the tribulation accordint to the promise in Revelation 3:10.

That's a lot to absorb may take a while so for now I will make just a couple of comments. I would say that in the context of chosen in him before one could be born again even before he is born the first time, however I do not believe that is the context of John 3. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God. The beginning of the good news Jesus preached in the meaning here. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, . I notice JF started a thread about this but I haven't looked at it yet. Nick had either heard Jesus or heard about him preaching this and came to him by night inquiring. Jesus tells him the only way anyone, OT, NT or any other T will ever see or enter the kingdom of God is to be born from above. He tells him he is flesh because he was born from his flesh parents yet he must be spirit and be born of the Spirit of God. Peter tells us that er have been, "begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you. We are begotten not yet born, just as you were begotten in your mother about nine months before your birth, unto a lively hope, read Rom. 8:24,25 by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
That is spoken of in Col. 1:18 as firstborn from the dead. Please do not tell me about David and firstborn, which was actually about Jesus, or any other concept about firstborn. Being followed by the phrase of the or from the dead it means just that. If it had firstborn of the color green and he was green what would you say. Born of the Spirit is speaking of resurrection.

Concerning OT/NT. At the end of Heb. 11 they without us shall not be made perfect, implies all together and is speaking of resurrection if you read back a few verses. Gal. 3:29 And if ye Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. The only promise anyone who has or will live has ever had was made to Abraham and his seed Christ. The only thing you will ever inherit was promised to Abraham and you will receive it at the very same time he dose.

 

[revmwc]

That's a lot to absorb may take a while so for now I will make just a couple of comments. I would say that in the context of chosen in him before one could be born again even before he is born the first time, however I do not believe that is the context of John 3. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God. The beginning of the good news Jesus preached in the meaning here. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, . I notice JF started a thread about this but I haven't looked at it yet. Nick had either heard Jesus or heard about him preaching this and came to him by night inquiring. Jesus tells him the only way anyone, OT, NT or any other T will ever see or enter the kingdom of God is to be born from above. He tells him he is flesh because he was born from his flesh parents yet he must be spirit and be born of the Spirit of God. Peter tells us that er have been, "begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you. We are begotten not yet born, just as you were begotten in your mother about nine months before your birth, unto a lively hope, read Rom. 8:24,25 by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
That is spoken of in Col. 1:18 as firstborn from the dead. Please do not tell me about David and firstborn, which was actually about Jesus, or any other concept about firstborn. Being followed by the phrase of the or from the dead it means just that. If it had firstborn of the color green and he was green what would you say. Born of the Spirit is speaking of resurrection.

Concerning OT/NT. At the end of Heb. 11 they without us shall not be made perfect, implies all together and is speaking of resurrection if you read back a few verses. Gal. 3:29 And if ye Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. The only promise anyone who has or will live has ever had was made to Abraham and his seed Christ. The only thing you will ever inherit was promised to Abraham and you will receive it at the very same time he dose.

Romans 8: 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Verse 23 is the key we are waiting to be completed, we are Spiritually reborn as identified by the Holy Spirit in us and our human spirit working together. We are saved by hope, hope in what is not seen. We have not seen the risen Lord but we believe He rose and we have hope that we too will be raised, that is our bodily ressurection and the changing of the corruptable body to an incorruptable one.

Collosians 1:18 Christ is the head of the church, He is the first to have risen from the dead, in order that He be first or above all things pertaining to salvation, to the church and to everyone who has believed all in it's order Christ the Firstborn, the Preeminant one over all things.

Hebrews 11: 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect

They have not received the promise of the Kingdom of Israel being set up but I believe this is also speaking of their ressurection has not yet taken place, they have not yet been made complete. The also never saw their Saviour come they believed He would come and He did we didn't see Him come but we believe it and we have a better faith. Theirs is in the one who is coming ours is in the one who has already come. Without Him having come and we being part of the bride means that they would not be made perfect.



Galatians 3:29 the believers in Christ receive the inheritence of the Kingdom which is to come, we share in the Abrahamic family of Faith, it doesn't say we become or replace the Jews. We share in the inherietance of eternal life.

 

[thomas15]

The only promise anyone who has or will live has ever had was made to Abraham and his seed Christ. The only thing you will ever inherit was promised to Abraham and you will receive it at the very same time he dose.

I see in Gen Ch 13 and ch 15 where Jehovah God promised Abraham and his seed a good land for as far as the eye could see. If Jehovah God has any intention of keeping this promise I suspect that at the resurrection Abraham will cash in on this promise. I hope by the way that God does in fact keep this promise and that the Apostles are able to receive the promise Jesus made to them, that is to rule over the twelve tribes in the Kingdom. Why? Because if God breaks His promise to Abraham and his seed, how can we know that He will keep His promise of life to us?

 

[percho]

From Tom's response above but to everyone.

New birth is when someone has faith in Christ. If any man is in Christ he is a new creation.

The first man Adam became a living soul when the breath of life from God was breathed into what was made from the ground and he, the living soul Adam according to Romans 5:14 was the figure of him that was to come, meaning I assume the Word made flesh was made 100% like the first man Adam and he was 100% God. I have been trying to find these 100%'s in scripture and can't but because ya'll use them so will I.
This man Jesus the Christ the sinless one lived and then died for the sin of the world.
This man Jesus the Christ was buried.
This man Jesus the Christ God the Father raised from the dead. Gal.1:1 Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead --YNG
This man Jesus the Christ is now on the right hand of God. Hebrews 10:12 And He, for sin one sacrifice having offered -- to the end, did sit down on the right hand of God, -

Did Jesus go into death as the last Adam it the image of the first Adam and was raised as the Second Adam a quickening Spirit the beginning the firstborn from the dead in whose image we shall be made?

Did God come as God to save man or did God come as man to save him?
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. The first man (the word for Adam) of the earth, earthy: the second man (the word for Adam) the Lord from heaven.

A new man?

We are not going to be like the first Adam as created we are going to be like the angles unable to die and better than the first Adam when we put on the image of the second Adam which is immortality.

The new birth?

 

[percho]

I see in Gen Ch 13 and ch 15 where Jehovah God promised Abraham and his seed a good land for as far as the eye could see. If Jehovah God has any intention of keeping this promise I suspect that at the resurrection Abraham will cash in on this promise. I hope by the way that God does in fact keep this promise and that the Apostles are able to receive the promise Jesus made to them, that is to rule over the twelve tribes in the Kingdom. Why? Because if God breaks His promise to Abraham and his seed, how can we know that He will keep His promise of life to us?

Thank God we do not worry about him keeping his promise for he has given us assurance through the Holy Spirit.

Paul understood the promises to Abraham in this light, For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

When Jesus told the Jews that Abraham desired to see his day, what day was this? I believe it was this day. And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, (the promise that in his seed Christ which would come through the only begotten Isaac who God told him to sacrifice) God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

In Isaac he saw Christ in the day he was raised and declared to be the Son of God.

 

[JesusFan]

Thank God we do not worry about him keeping his promise for he has given us assurance through the Holy Spirit.

Paul understood the promises to Abraham in this light, For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

When Jesus told the Jews that Abraham desired to see his day, what day was this? I believe it was this day. And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, (the promise that in his seed Christ which would come through the only begotten Isaac who God told him to sacrifice) God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

In Isaac he saw Christ in the day he was raised and declared to be the Son of God.

Just curious...

How do you define "born again" and do you see God as being a Holy trinity?

 

[percho]

Just curious...

How do you define "born again" and do you see God as being a Holy trinity?

I believe we are baptized by one Spirit into the church of God begotten of the Father by that Spirit of adoption making us sons and that we will be born again by that same Spirit through resurrection into the kingdom of God.

I believe the NT for sure shows Jesus the Christ as the Son of God, The Father as God and the Holy Spirit as God. I am not sure persons is the correct terminology but I think that is about the only term our minds can conceive of God. In the OT you also see evidence of a plurality of God yet him being one God.

 

[convicted1]

Oh, where to begin, dear Brother, where to begin.

Ecc. 12:7 says nothing about the soul. Ecc. 12:7 would be more equal to Luke 23:46 and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, `Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. (Expired, died) At that very moment where was his soul? His body was still on the cross, perishing yet it did not see corruption.

Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Hebrew word for "spirit" in this verse: ruwach רוּחַ H7307

Thayer's definition:
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit

a) breath

b) wind

d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)

1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being


So this "spirit" being mentioned here has to be our soul, that upon death, it leaves the body and returns to God(the believer that is) who gave it, or will end up in hell(the unbeliever).

All I know for sure is three days and three nights later His soul was resurrected from Hades and his flesh did not see corruption.

Uh, where can you support this with scripture?? His soul never went to hades, but it went back to God. His flesh did not see corruption due to the fact He(His physical body, that is) was in the tomb for only three nights and days.

And being Jesus himself said he (and I do not think he meant his body or he would have said my body) would be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

Jesus' body was in the tomb(heart of the earth, so to speak) for three days and nights, but His soul went back to God, His Father. Why else would He cry out, "Into Thy hands, I commend My Spirit"?? Now on that third morning, His Spirit went back into His body, and was resurrected from the dead, just like He said He would. His Spirit never tatsted death, but His physical body did. That is what needed resurrected, His body.

However he also said destroy this temple and he would raise it up in three days, meaning the temple of his body.

I agree with this. His physical body was racked with pain, as they slaughtered Him and then nailed Him to the cross. His body did die, but His Spirit did not. It went back to God. He told them to tear down this temple(His physical body), and He would raise it up again. He stated He had power to lay His life down, and power to pick it up again(meaning His body, not Spirit).

Can the soul exist without the body? I believe the word shows that they belong together. What makes up a soul?
God formed Adam from the dust of the ground, without life and inanimate just a body made of dust, then God breathed life into what was made from the ground and the two together became a living soul. Man was a soul, living as long as the breath of life from god is in him. When it returns to God who gave it the soul dies and over time the body would return to dust.

Adam's body was in a dormant state until God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and he became a living soul.

Hebrew word for soul in Gen.2:7: נֶפֶשׁ nephesh H5315

Thayer's definition:
a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man

b) living being

c) living being (with life in the blood)

d) the man himself, self, person or individual

So, a soul can, and does, exist without the body. When we die the physical death, the soul leaves and goes either "up" or "down", considering the state the soul was in at the time of death, saint or sinner, I mean. The soul will go on by itself, until Jesus comes and raises the dead. The soul then reunites with the body, and if saved, go to heaven, and if a sinner, the lake of fire. And FTR, the soul NEVER dies, but it will go either "up" or "down", considering the state it is in upon death, being a saint or sinner.

Therefore the soul has to be resurrected from death with a body for the two go together.

I think you have this wrong, Brother. The body needs the soul to be "functional". When the soul leaves, the body dies, but the soul is still "living", meaning if its in hell, it will feel pain, etc. If that soul leaves with the blood applied to it, it will go to heaven, and it will be in heaven. In either state, the soul is still functional. Now, when Jesus returns in the cloud of Glory, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive, will be changed, and will join Jesus in the cloud. Those bodies that have died, will be changed into a spiritual body, and will reunite with the soul that Jesus brings back with Him in that cloud. Those who died in sin will also be raised, and will reunite with the soul that is brought out of hell. They will reunite(soul and spiritual body), their sentence is rendered unto them, and they are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

I hope that none of this comes off as being offnesive, but I am convinced of this which I posted.....I guess so are you with your belief, too. Have a good week!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[asterisktom]

Thanks for answering Tom. You are right, I should not have been so overly sarcastic. I apologize.

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11)
--The manner in which he went was visible and physical.
This is the same manner in which he would come again. How do you get anything else out of this. This is what the angels were emphasizing to the apostles. Why are you gazing? He is coming again! And he is coming in the same visible way that he went! It won't be invisible. He is saying the exact opposite of what you believe.

You said (how) Christ is to return. The how is visibly and physically. What else could the "how" refer to?

No, your's is the opposite. "A cloud received Him out of their sight." You make no accounting of this cloud, or of Him being hidden from their eyes. You had previously written "the apostles were told that Christ would come visibly as he went visibly."

But that is wrong. They had seen Christ disappear into a cloud and be hidden from the sight. It is only after that that they are told that message of verse 11, the verse that all too often is quoted all by its lonesome. To me it is very telling that futurists have no use for the cloud, and its hiding activity. At the very least, they should admit that this passage (passage, not single verse) is not straightforward evidence for the futurist view, since it admits of two legitimate interpretations -that is, just what is meant by "manner". Neither is it the best of evidences for Preterists.

Can you point to one verse in Acts 7 where Stephen indicates that he is having a vision. That is not there; not in the context anywhere. You can say that about the vision of Isaiah, about what John saw, but you can't say that about Stephen say.

Yes, I can. I did.

"But he, being full of the Holy Spirit," - Acts 7:55

Compare with

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day," - Rev 1:10

Secondly, was Stephen lying? Are you doubting what he saw? Vision or no vision, why would he say those words. For example Peter had a vision of a sheet filled with unclean animals. In the vision did he see what he told us, or was he deceived and saw something else. Is the Word of God accurate and telling the truth about what he saw? Is the Word of God accurate in recording what Stephen saw? Did Stephen see Jesus Christ standing or not? Why would Stephen lie?

I will make it my practice to not answer any "Have you stopped beating your wife?" questions. If you want to rephrase, feel free.

Thirdly, what else does the Bible say about Christ?
Where is Christ right now?
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)

Oh, you don't have to convince a Preterist that Christ is seated at the throne. It is futurists who still have Christ waiting to be enthroned. All these verses, whether they are via vision or straight teaching, are certainly true. Christ is reigning right now, officiating as High Priest right now, and is our only Prophet. All of this is shown in Hebrews 1 and elsewhere.

--Right now he is in a resurrection body seated on the right hand of the throne of God. He has a physical body. He is sitting down.

And He has a physical sword coming out of that physical mouth. Or is the sword symbolic, yet coming out of a physical mouth?

I will repeat that, if Christ became permanently physical from the time of the incarnation then Christ, as God, is not immutable (unchangeable). Yet the Bible says God is unchangeable. Thus, if Christ permanently becomes this spiritual/physical entity He would then cease to be God. It is the same type of Christological error that the some make with Christ's Kenosis, "emptying", in Phil. 2.

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Hebrews 1:3)
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Peter 3:22)
--But when it came to Stephen he stood.

1John 3:2 says two things:
1. We shall see him as he is. This points to his visible and physical body when he returns.
2. We shall be like him. This truth is connected with the previous one. How shall we be like him? We shall be like him in the way that he returns, with a physical and visible body. If that is not the way that we will be like him, then you are taking it out of its context, for that is what the context is speaking of.
"He that has this hope in him purifies himself." The second coming; the actual visible and physical return of Christ, that Blessed hope of all believers, has been a purifying hope in the believers life.

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)
--The passage I cited (1John 3:2) does say that. That is its teaching. That is exactly what John set out to teach. How do you get anything else out of it.

You refer to the next five verses or so. I already referred to verse four.
If you note in the KJV, verse five has a paragraph marker, where John goes on and begins a different thought in the chapter.

That is a real problem today, this business of accepting someone else's paragraphs. This could be a topic in itself, especially when it comes to the NIV and some of their atrocious divisions.

No, verse 5 does not begin a different thought. It continues the thought.


This is all the time I have for this right now. I appreciate all the time you put into your responses, DHK, however much I may have disagreed with them.

 

[JesusFan]

No, your's is the opposite. "A cloud received Him out of their sight." You make no accounting of this cloud, or of Him being hidden from their eyes. You had previously written "the apostles were told that Christ would come visibly as he went visibly."

But that is wrong. They had seen Christ disappear into a cloud and be hidden from the sight. It is only after that that they are told that message of verse 11, the verse that all too often is quoted all by its lonesome. To me it is very telling that futurists have no use for the cloud, and its hiding activity. At the very least, they should admit that this passage (passage, not single verse) is not straightforward evidence for the futurist view, since it admits of two legitimate interpretations -that is, just what is meant by "manner". Neither is it the best of evidences for Preterists.

Yes, I can. I did.

"But he, being full of the Holy Spirit," - Acts 7:55

Compare with

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day," - Rev 1:10



I will make it my practice to not answer any "Have you stopped beating your wife?" questions. If you want to rephrase, feel free.

Oh, you don't have to convince a Preterist that Christ is seated at the throne. It is futurists who still have Christ waiting to be enthroned. All these verses, whether they are via vision or straight teaching, are certainly true. Christ is reigning right now, officiating as High Priest right now, and is our only Prophet. All of this is shown in Hebrews 1 and elsewhere.

And He has a physical sword coming out of that physical mouth. Or is the sword symbolic, yet coming out of a physical mouth?

I will repeat that, if Christ became permanently physical from the time of the incarnation then Christ, as God, is not immutable (unchangeable). Yet the Bible says God is unchangeable. Thus, if Christ permanently becomes this spiritual/physical entity He would then cease to be God.


That is a real problem today, this business of accepting someone else's paragraphs. This could be a topic in itself, especially when it comes to the NIV and some of their atrocious divisions.

No, verse 5 does not begin a different thought. It continues the thought.


This is all the time I have for this right now. I appreciate all the time you put into your responses, DHK, however much I may have disagreed with them.

You seem to have a real big problem with the Biblical truth of the Incarnation...

God DID become Human Flesh, and walked among us...

He DID die as a sin bearer, for the sins of Humanity upon the Cross, paying sin debt in full. Propiation for whole World...

God DID become something BRAND NEW in that moment of time, as he chose to became Human, to have the dual natures of God/Human forever linked in person of Jesus, fully God/Fully man... still was/is God, But added FOREVER the Human nature to Himself, in body of Jesus Christ...

SAME Jesus now in Heavem forever God/Man, same body died in, now raised up in heavenly realm, restored fully to His glory as "only begotten of the Father"

You have denied HisSecond Coming in a lietrally physical sense...
Denied the physical bodily resurrection..

Are you now going to deny the fact of the Incarnation also?