2nd fallacy of "non-cals"

Avoidance techinque because you obviously can't answer the argument and obey the rules at the same time.

I've already done your homework and listed two for you.

 

Hear Hear.....:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

That statement alone proves you dont understand Calvinism.

 

Ok, educate a non-Calvinist. Does God predestine everything? If He does ordain whatsoever comes to pass, then there is no actual permissive will, only God allowing what He has predestined. Calvinism, as presented on this board, is a logical impossiblity. Now Boettner's clear-cut presentation is not, God has total omniscience, which presupposes everything is predestined. Thus God is the author of sin and a monster, according to Calvinism, because He punishes people for His predestined acts of sin.

"Anyone who disagrees proves they do not understand Calvinism." (Using arguments like that add heat and sidetrack threads into bickering, the goal of those opposed to truth.)

 

Think that your basic premise is flawed, as you tend to apply it towards all cals...

IF you are addressing the concerns of theology held and espoused by those in the "high" Cal camp, those who are gholding to God having but 1 Divine Will, direct cause/dtermines all things by decrees of that Divine Will.
One thing

There are Mod ones like me who would hold to God has 2 Wills, a divine direct/causing and a permissive.allowing

In manners of salavtion, a general Will God loves all jesus died for all
Specific Will Those God chooses and elects out will become saved by jesus act on the Cross, but they still need to palce faith in taht to be saved!

 

Oh.... LOL..... your a moderator now. Well thats your opinion! I just consider it tellin the truth:tongue3:

 

I'm sure that is what Jesus meant when he said to his disciples, "I no longer call you servants...but now I call you friends." (Jn 15:15)

Luke's translation: No longer do I call you servants, but you are lucky I would even call you a plastic chess piece in this global chess match, where I play both side of the board in order to ensure victory. That should be enough for you!

 

Perhaps someone can point out Permissive Will to me in the Scriptures......I seriously dont see it.

 

And you dont think it was a dumb analogy to liken man to a pawn? kinda buying into that "robot or Puppet" analogy again dont you think?

 

Suppose you lied yesterday at noon.

Did God desire that you lie? No.

In fact, he commanded that you not do so and certainly wouldn't want his child to sin.

Did he decree that you lie? Yes, in that he permissively allowed you to do it. He did not hinder you.

So, he desired that you resist the temptation to lie, but having foreknowledge, He permissively decreed that you would lie.

How else would you explain it without making God the author of that lie?

 

Were in Scripture is it?

 

1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, and Ezekiel 18:23 to start with...

BTW, even Edwards held to a permissive will of God.

 

Gods original and "best" will is that husband/wife stay in marriage, Jesus said that due to the hardness of their hearts, He allowed/permitted a cert of divorce be issued... So not the "highest" will of God was done, but what He permitted to happen...

 

It's everywhere! Every time God says not to do something and man does it, or to do something and man does not do it. Start in Genesis with Adam and Eve.

 

Im hard-pressed to accept this.....to me its too close to RC teaching of mortal & venial sins with venial sins being accepted by God. I dont accept that God is the author of sin so after my conversion, why would he accept my sins? Now if you indicate that God is mercifull to sinners, perhaps I could buy it....just doesn't sit well with me & I will have to study it more.

 

I believe in permissive will under absolute sovereignty. This is how God allows man to move about doing his own thing. God, does however, say when enough is enough. A good example is Jonah.

Cheers,

Jim

 

There really can be no middle ground. God either allows sin or makes one sin.

 

Hi Webdog, the Calvinists evade that with God "allows" folks to pick their sin, but they maintain a person cannot effectively seek mercy. Thus God only sets death and not life or death before the lost. Not what the bible says.

The believe God predestines everything, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but deny this makes God the author of sin. Thus Calvinism is a logical impossiblity.

 

Van, try reading calvinism for a change. It just might enlighten in dark areas.

Cheers,

Jim