2nd fallacy of "non-cals"

[Van]

Hi Jesusfan,
There are Mod ones like me who would hold to God has 2 Wills, a divine direct/causing and a permissive.allowing

In manners of salavtion, a general Will God loves all jesus died for all
Specific Will Those God chooses and elects out will become saved by jesus act on the Cross, but they still need to palce faith in taht to be saved!

The problem is the "Mod ones" actuallty believe everything is predestined, so they say God allows what He predestined. This simply rewrites the meaning of "allow" to mean cause.

Now you say "all Jesus died for" and not Jesus died for all mankind. Why not speak clearly. God could not desire all men to be saved, if Jesus only died for the elect.

Next, you have the order out of order. Jesus died for all mankind. So He because the propitiation for the whole world. He provides justification of life to all men. But, in order to receive that reconcilation provided by His propitiation, in order to receive that justification provided by His sacrifice, God must credit our faith in Jesus as righteousness and place us spiritually in Christ. You have it, chosen individually before creation, then called, then transferred from the realm of darkness into His kingdom. The Bible has it, called by the gospel, our response, God credits (or not) our response and individually elects us by putting us spiritually in Christ. We are the "called, chosen and faithful", not the chosen, called and faithful of the Calvinist rewrite.

 

[JesusFan]

Hi Webdog, the Calvinists evade that with God "allows" folks to pick their sin, but they maintain a person cannot effectively seek mercy. Thus God only sets death and not life or death before the lost. Not what the bible says.

The believe God predestines everything, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but deny this makes God the author of sin. Thus Calvinism is a logical impossiblity.

Again, you are "beating a dead horse"

Your "beef" so to speak is NOT against calvinism per say, but against the Hyper Cal crowd who do see God determining everything, as they are supra in their beliefs!

 

[webdog]

Van, try reading calvinism for a change. It just might enlighten in dark areas.

Cheers,

Jim

How does one "read calvinism"

what other option is there besides permitting or decreeing? I see you inserted permission under God's sovereignty, but what does that mean? I believe that to be true, but how do you define it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The believe God predestines everything, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but deny this makes God the author of sin. Thus Calvinism is a logical impossiblity.

Huh.....I just told you that not all Calvinists believe this, so why did you ignore my prior post? Selective amnesia perhaps?!?:BangHead:

 

[JesusFan]

Hi Jesusfan,
There are Mod ones like me who would hold to God has 2 Wills, a divine direct/causing and a permissive.allowing

In manners of salavtion, a general Will God loves all jesus died for all
Specific Will Those God chooses and elects out will become saved by jesus act on the Cross, but they still need to palce faith in taht to be saved!

The problem is the "Mod ones" actuallty believe everything is predestined, so they say God allows what He predestined. This simply rewrites the meaning of "allow" to mean cause.

Just stating that in the end, that the one with the FINAL SAY in the matter of salvation will be God, not mankind...

Now you say "all Jesus died for" and not Jesus died for all mankind. Why not speak clearly. God could not desire all men to be saved, if Jesus only died for the elect.

General /Specific Wills of God...

He does love all peoples, as His created beings , and Jesus ids propiation of entire Worls, all could "potentially" be saved, but it just those chosen/elected out by God that will get saved...

Next, you have the order out of order. Jesus died for all mankind. So He because the propitiation for the whole world. He provides justification of life to all men. But, in order to receive that reconcilation provided by His propitiation, in order to receive that justification provided by His sacrifice, God must credit our faith in Jesus as righteousness and place us spiritually in Christ. You have it, chosen individually before creation, then called, then transferred from the realm of darkness into His kingdom. The Bible has it, called by the gospel, our response, God credits (or not) our response and individually elects us by putting us spiritually in Christ. We are the "called, chosen and faithful", not the chosen, called and faithful of the Calvinist rewrite.

The basis of our salvation/redemption/regeneration etc is NOT our faith in Christ, but in the atoning work of the Cross itself.. faith allows one to access that Grace, but is NOT the anchor of our salavtion...

When In Christ, by the Cross, eternally secured, "Even IF we deny him, he cannot deny Himself"...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Again, you are "beating a dead horse"

Your "beef" so to speak is NOT against calvinism per say, but against the Hyper Cal crowd who do see God determining everything, as they are supra in their beliefs!

I wouldnt go so far as to call a brother or sister a Hypercalvinist, but I believe they have a distorted perception of Scripture that can turn fatalistic if continued to that extreme. These guys just want to paint us all with the same brush. Then the accuser becomes void of rational thinking. Pitty!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The basis of our salvation/redemption/regeneration etc is NOT our faith in Christ, but in the atoning work of the Cross itself.. faith allows one to access that Grace, but is NOT the anchor of our salavtion...

When In Christ, by the Cross, eternally secured, "Even IF we deny him, he cannot deny Himself"...

Bravo :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Jim1999]

quote: How does one "read calvinism"
------------------------------------------

Try reading Systematic Theology by A.H. Strong. An excellent presentation of calvinism by a baptist.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

1 John 4:14-15

14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.

That should sum it up!:thumbsup:

 

[JesusFan]

quote: How does one "read calvinism"
------------------------------------------

Try reading Systematic Theology by A.H. Strong. An excellent presentation of calvinism by a baptist.

Cheers,

Jim

Thanks!

Would say try to read works on Calivinism with an "open mind!"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thanks!

Would say try to read works on Calivinism with an "open mind!"

Have you read "Institutes"?

 

[JesusFan]

Have you read "Institutes"?

yes, was years ago though...
Should dig it back up and reread it again...

read the English translation was a 2 volume set, translator of it escapes me now !

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

yes, was years ago though...
Should dig it back up and reread it again...

read the English translation was a 2 volume set, translator of it escapes me now !

Are you a Pastor?

 

[JesusFan]

Are you a Pastor?

No, but have been an Elder/Deacon/Sunday school teacher for adults/children...

Interesting story on my salvation...

received jesus while in College, God brought 2 SBC Christians to be a witness to me...

Once saved, joined an Assemblies of God Church,a s they were active on my campus...

stayed there awhile, but never "bought: into "Classical pentacostal Theology"

many saints in there, and the fact that pastor was Seminary trained, so that helped him to stay close to biblical theology, not pentacostal theology ...

left there, and stayed awhile in an Evangelical Free Church, close to baptist in theology and 'feel"

past 7 years been member in a local baptist Church within the Great lakes baptist association, part of the North American baptist Churches...

 

[quantumfaith]

Van, try reading calvinism for a change. It just might enlighten in dark areas.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, you seem to a quite reasonable and cordial gentlemen (there are others too), but there have also been many discussions in the past and some committed reformed position have most definitely argued for God (desiring, engineering, authoring....pick your verb) sin into creation. I am not seeking to derail, just simply pointing out that this position, though not held by all of the reformed persuasion, has indeed been argued and defended here.

 

[Van]

The deal is all Calvinists, 100% are exhaustive determinists. Not one Calvinist posting on this board has had the integrity to say God does not predestine everything. Not one.

So they write stuff to attack my qualifications, i.e you need to read Calvinism, but that is an obvious logical fallacy. Yet they use it, because anyone can attack another poster's qualifications without a shred of evidence. Note they always speak in generalities, because I provide quotes from published sources when they challenge anything specific. I present Calvinism in complete accuracy. They run away from the published doctrines of grace saying "not all Calvinists believe in this or that." Twaddle!!

I am still waiting for a Calvinist to say God does not predestine everything. When and if one does, I will say they do not believe in classical Calvinism as expressed in the Westminster Confession which says God ordains whatsoever comes to pass.

 

[quantumfaith]

The deal is all Calvinists, 100% are exhaustive determinists. Not one Calvinist posting on this board has had the integrity to say God does not predestine everything. Not one.

So they write stuff to attack my qualifications, i.e you need to read Calvinism, but that is an obvious logical fallacy. Yet they use it, because anyone can attack another poster's qualifications without a shred of evidence. Note they always speak in generalities, because I provide quotes from published sources when they challenge anything specific. I present Calvinism in complete accuracy. They run away from the published doctrines of grace saying "not all Calvinists believe in this or that." Twaddle!!

I am still waiting for a Calvinist to say God does not predestine everything. When and if one does, I will say they do not believe in classical Calvinism as expressed in the Westminster Confession which says God ordains whatsoever comes to pass.

Van, while I may agree often with you in principle, I don't think we should call into question the "integrity" of each one on this board who espouses reformed theology.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am still waiting for a Calvinist to say God does not predestine everything. When and if one does, I will say they do not believe in classical Calvinism as expressed in the Westminster Confession which says God ordains whatsoever comes to pass.

So your implying that God also ordains Evil & Sin?

 

[Luke2427]

So your implying that God also ordains Evil & Sin?

God decrees evil and sin.

He is either exhaustively Sovereign or he is not.

Here is the Westminster on it. The Baptist Confession reads the same.

Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]

Somehow he did it so as not to be the author of sin but it does not change the fact that he ordained EVERYTHING that comes to pass both good and evil.

This is not hypercalvinism. It is nothing but REAL Calvinism.

Hypercalvinism has nothing to do with this issue.

Jonathan Edwards said:

It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God's glory should be complete; that is, that all parts of his glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent, that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all. . . .

Thus it is necessary, that God's awful majesty, his authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God's glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of his goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all.

 

[Tater77]

To be a pawn of God ought to be more than enough for any Christian.

To say, "Oh God, I am but a piece you move to accomplish your holy purposes- but OH to be a piece which God places his hand upon!" ought to be enough for anyone.

I guess that depends on which side you were predestined to huh?