2nd fallacy of "non-cals"

[Skandelon]

I'm not debating you since you have done to me what you know you have done but I will say this:

Avoidance techinque because you obviously can't answer the argument and obey the rules at the same time.

The real challenge will be to FIND these Arminian scholars.

I've already done your homework and listed two for you.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To be a pawn of God ought to be more than enough for any Christian.

To say, "Oh God, I am but a piece you move to accomplish your holy purposes- but OH to be a piece which God places his hand upon!" ought to be enough for anyone.

Hear Hear.....:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree with you. I do not see how a Calvinist can but see themselves and everyone else as pawns in the hands of God. After all according to their, the Calvinist on this BB, everything, absolutely everything, ever action, inaction, breath, motion, flick of the wrist was predestined. We have no choice, according to them. We are puppets on God's string. I reject that idea. The Calvinist postings here have convinced me that they are in error in a number of places.

That statement alone proves you dont understand Calvinism.

 

[Van]

Ok, educate a non-Calvinist. Does God predestine everything? If He does ordain whatsoever comes to pass, then there is no actual permissive will, only God allowing what He has predestined. Calvinism, as presented on this board, is a logical impossiblity. Now Boettner's clear-cut presentation is not, God has total omniscience, which presupposes everything is predestined. Thus God is the author of sin and a monster, according to Calvinism, because He punishes people for His predestined acts of sin.

"Anyone who disagrees proves they do not understand Calvinism." (Using arguments like that add heat and sidetrack threads into bickering, the goal of those opposed to truth.)

 

[JesusFan]

Ok, educate a non-Calvinist. Does God predestine everything? If He does ordain whatsoever comes to pass, then there is no actual permissive will, only God allowing what He has predestined. Calvinism, as presented on this board, is a logical impossiblity. Now Boettner's clear-cut presentation is not, God has total omniscience, which presupposes everything is predestined. Thus God is the author of sin and a monster, according to Calvinism, because He punishes people for His predestined acts of sin.

"Anyone who disagrees proves they do not understand Calvinism." (Using arguments like that add heat and sidetrack threads into bickering, the goal of those opposed to truth.)

Think that your basic premise is flawed, as you tend to apply it towards all cals...

IF you are addressing the concerns of theology held and espoused by those in the "high" Cal camp, those who are gholding to God having but 1 Divine Will, direct cause/dtermines all things by decrees of that Divine Will.
One thing

There are Mod ones like me who would hold to God has 2 Wills, a divine direct/causing and a permissive.allowing

In manners of salavtion, a general Will God loves all jesus died for all
Specific Will Those God chooses and elects out will become saved by jesus act on the Cross, but they still need to palce faith in taht to be saved!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Does God predestine everything?

Predestination is always about *people* not *events*. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He predestined all whom He foreknew. Some say that God predestined everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Now, THAT would make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin. Now, there are some things God “decreed” to happen when they did (as the first and second coming of Jesus) but that is a completely different subject.

Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"Anyone who disagrees proves they do not understand Calvinism." (Using arguments like that add heat and sidetrack threads into bickering, the goal of those opposed to truth.)

Oh.... LOL..... your a moderator now. Well thats your opinion! I just consider it tellin the truth:tongue3:

 

[Skandelon]

To be a pawn of God ought to be more than enough for any Christian.

To say, "Oh God, I am but a piece you move to accomplish your holy purposes- but OH to be a piece which God places his hand upon!" ought to be enough for anyone.

I'm sure that is what Jesus meant when he said to his disciples, "I no longer call you servants...but now I call you friends." (Jn 15:15)

Luke's translation: No longer do I call you servants, but you are lucky I would even call you a plastic chess piece in this global chess match, where I play both side of the board in order to ensure victory. That should be enough for you!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Think that your basic premise is flawed, as you tend to apply it towards all cals...

IF you are addressing the concerns of theology held and espoused by those in the "high" Cal camp, those who are gholding to God having but 1 Divine Will, direct cause/dtermines all things by decrees of that Divine Will.
One thing

There are Mod ones like me who would hold to God has 2 Wills, a divine direct/causing and a permissive.allowing

In manners of salavtion, a general Will God loves all jesus died for all
Specific Will Those God chooses and elects out will become saved by jesus act on the Cross, but they still need to palce faith in taht to be saved!

Perhaps someone can point out Permissive Will to me in the Scriptures......I seriously dont see it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm sure that is what Jesus meant when he said to his disciples, "I no longer call you servants...but now I call you friends." (Jn 15:15)

Luke's translation: No longer do I call you servants, but you are lucky I would even call you a plastic chess piece in this global chess match, where I play both side of the board in order to ensure victory. That should be enough for you!

And you dont think it was a dumb analogy to liken man to a pawn? kinda buying into that "robot or Puppet" analogy again dont you think?

 

[Skandelon]

Perhaps someone can point out Permissive Will to me in the Scriptures......I seriously dont see it.

Suppose you lied yesterday at noon.

Did God desire that you lie? No.

In fact, he commanded that you not do so and certainly wouldn't want his child to sin.

Did he decree that you lie? Yes, in that he permissively allowed you to do it. He did not hinder you.

So, he desired that you resist the temptation to lie, but having foreknowledge, He permissively decreed that you would lie.

How else would you explain it without making God the author of that lie?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Suppose you lied yesterday at noon.

Did God desire that you lie? No.

In fact, he commanded that you not do so and certainly wouldn't want his child to sin.

Did he decree that you lie? Yes, in that he permissively allowed you to do it. He did not hinder you.

So, he desired that you resist the temptation to lie, but having foreknowledge, He permissively decreed that you would lie.

How else would you explain it without making God the author of that lie?

Were in Scripture is it?

 

[Skandelon]

Were in Scripture is it?

1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, and Ezekiel 18:23 to start with...

BTW, even Edwards held to a permissive will of God.

 

[JesusFan]

Perhaps someone can point out Permissive Will to me in the Scriptures......I seriously dont see it.

Gods original and "best" will is that husband/wife stay in marriage, Jesus said that due to the hardness of their hearts, He allowed/permitted a cert of divorce be issued... So not the "highest" will of God was done, but what He permitted to happen...

 

[webdog]

Were in Scripture is it?

It's everywhere! Every time God says not to do something and man does it, or to do something and man does not do it. Start in Genesis with Adam and Eve.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Im hard-pressed to accept this.....to me its too close to RC teaching of mortal & venial sins with venial sins being accepted by God. I dont accept that God is the author of sin so after my conversion, why would he accept my sins? Now if you indicate that God is mercifull to sinners, perhaps I could buy it....just doesn't sit well with me & I will have to study it more.

 

[Jim1999]

I believe in permissive will under absolute sovereignty. This is how God allows man to move about doing his own thing. God, does however, say when enough is enough. A good example is Jonah.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[webdog]

There really can be no middle ground. God either allows sin or makes one sin.

 

[Van]

Hi Webdog, the Calvinists evade that with God "allows" folks to pick their sin, but they maintain a person cannot effectively seek mercy. Thus God only sets death and not life or death before the lost. Not what the bible says.

The believe God predestines everything, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but deny this makes God the author of sin. Thus Calvinism is a logical impossiblity.

 

[Jim1999]

Van, try reading calvinism for a change. It just might enlighten in dark areas.

Cheers,

Jim