Does Calvanism REALLY Turn God Into A Puppet master us Into puppets?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Originally Posted by Winman View Post
I don't have a problem whatsoever with God sending people who are old enough to understand right from wrong and willingly choose to sin to hell.

So how would they know better if their sin natures were so overpowering that they could not see clearly? Both Glfred & Allan have just posted that their perceptions are distorted by sin. So if thats true, these sinners are incapable of selecting anything but sin. Therefore you by your claim are justifying their going to hell. And if everyone has the same sin nature, chances are everyone is going to hell. Now, is that fair?

 

[InTheLight]

Does Calvanism REALLY Turn God Into A Puppet master us Into puppets?

Yes..........

 

[JesusFan]

"The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"

This is the very essence of what I believe, even as a non-Calvinist. God is not in any way morally obligated to save anyone because we deserve it. Again, this is a point upon which we can all agree.

However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe). Not because they deserve it, but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world, which is to be applied only through faith. His universal call to "every creature" to faith and repentance obligates him to save whosoever repents and believes. The doctrine that teaches that God only grants this ability to willingly repent and believe to a select few while appearing to call "every creature" is what causes the non-Calvinists to cry, "Foul!"

I don't believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because he condemns certain people to hell. I believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling.

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be geniune!

jesus death uon the Cross was a propiation in full for the whole World, but its effectual basis is applied ONLY to those who will do his requirement to appropiate for themselves... those who palce their faith and trust in jesus Christ, and in him alone...

Problem here is that NNE can come to jesus on their own, as weare ALL like sheep gone astry from the Shepherd of our souls...

God has to 'step in" to this situation and enable us to actually be able to respond in faith to His message..

We say that he does this by individually electing out those whom He chooses to have favor on, to quicken them and enable them to place faith in Christ, and NONE so elected shall fail to do that, ALL whom he chosen to receive Christ shall indeed...

You would say that God grants "universal grace" to all to have chance to repent and believe in Jesus, but still WE decide to accept jesus or not... Chance All, some. none will become saved...

still seemds that there is the case of us decidiing our own fates, God did all that He could do, and waits on us to make "right choices!"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

JF....are you typing from a Smart Phone?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes..........

Wrong....fatalism does & Calvinists are not fatalists.

Your misrepresentation of Calvinism is stunning.

 

[webdog]

Skan said....

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be geniune!


Honestly.....how do you see God as deceptive? To even go there is not a good thing. I spent my entire life in non belief & even blasphemed Him. Sin was my God, & I shamefully worshiped it..... It was my only reality & I laughed at all of you for being suckers. To give a guy like me who's greatest sin was unbelief a new life ....well now that is a precious gift indeed.

This post (and the following) by Allan was excellent and should answer your question thoroughly.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1688021&postcount=49

 

[webdog]

Wrong....fatalism does & Calvinists are not fatalists.

Your misrepresentation of Calvinism is stunning.

You should qualify this with "most" calvinists

 

[JesusFan]

JF....are you typing from a Smart Phone?

Small keyboard for typing, guess fat fingers get in the way!

 

[webdog]

Small keyboard for typing, guess fat fingers get in the way!

I feel your pain, brother :laugh:

You will always know which responses from me are done on a phone and which are done on a laptop.

 

[JesusFan]

Wrong....fatalism does & Calvinists are not fatalists.

Your misrepresentation of Calvinism is stunning.

ONLY Cals who might be considered that would be Hyper ones, dont think any here on Board posting though!

isn't it interesting that some Arms here have all cals teaching fatalism concerning God, that we make Him out to be a "Monster" because we dare to think that in Ultimate sense His Will will get done in area of salvation...

YET

If any of us question them by asking if their theology makes man ultimate determining of their fate...

Gets shot down as being "just wrong?' We misunderstand Arminianism ,Immediatly?
if we are assumed wrongf about Arms thinking..

is it possible they could be wrong about ours?

 

[JesusFan]

I feel your pain, brother :laugh:

You will always know which responses from me are done on a phone and which are done on a laptop.

yep, where is an IPad 7 inch when I need one!

 

[webdog]

isn't it interesting that some Arms here have all cals teaching fatalism concerning God, that we make Him out to be a "Monster" because we dare to think that in Ultimate sense His Will will get done in area of salvation...

The non-cal, non-arm believes this same thing!

 

[MB]

Jesus Fan;
Actually Calvinism turns God into a puppet master and leaves the people dependant on the fate of particular election.
MB

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus Fan;
Actually Calvinism turns God into a puppet master and leaves the people dependant on the fate of particular election.
MB

So then You are saying that any of us to be totally dependent upon the Will and desires getting done by God, who is rightous and just in ALL of His dealings and Decisions, is a bad thing?

 

[Alive in Christ]

EWF...

your not listening Alive in Christ. I was an enemy of God for 53 years, so your theory holds no water. Sorry.

I was an enemy of God for 25 years. I understand completly.

Also my salvation is very new to me & I spent allot of time focusing on what happened so I am not lying. And if you bothered to ask others their testimony you would be surprised how many walked around with no wish to have salvation prior being saved.

Again, that is the norm. Why do you think that is something unique to Calvinism?

Why do you think we Calvinists hold so tightly to our belief system.......here is a clue.....because it's TRUE! No other way to explain it.

There are some things in calvinism that are true. I am in complete agreement with calvinisms veiw of complete eternal security.

But calvinisn is waaay off in other areas

Such as this crazy idea that God is controling people like robots, or pieces on a chess board, with the free will of the people non-existant. Or this idea that people do not "choose" to recieve Christ, or that in eternity past God decided to damn millions of human beings to hell simply because he chose to.

All through the scriptures we see God giving people choices and options, with the blessings or problems coming to them accordingly.

And that includes people resisting Christ, or embracing Him.

 

[JesusFan]

EWF...



I was an enemy of God for 25 years. I understand completly.



Again, that is the norm. Why do you think that is something unique to Calvinism?



There are some things in calvinism that are true. I am in complete agreement with calvinisms veiw of complete eternal security.

But calvinisn is waaay off in other areas

Such as this crazy idea that God in controling people like robots, or pieces on a chess board, with the free will of the people non-existant. Or this idea that people do not "choose" to recieve Christ, or that in eternity past God decided to damn millions of human beings to hell simply because he chose to.

All through the scriptures we see God giving people choices and options, with the blessings or problems coming to them accordingly.

And that includes people resisting Christ, of embracing Him.

Thing on this is that I do NOT see God as simply "choosing " to dump of humans into hell, because he delights in seeing them spending an Eternity suffering...

instead, God provided the atonment/provision for Him to be able to intervene into a race of Humans who ALL were deserving of hell, ALL were sinful creatures who rebel against God in thoughts and deeds daily...

He could have decided to let us ALL go there, But chose to allowing for some to be redeemed, and to spend eternity in his presense...

Look at it this way...

those who are not the Elect, and ONLY God knows who they are, will never worry about their spiritual standing before God any ways, as dead to God, being totally depraived...

Those of us worried about those things should be rejoicing, as pretty good sign that we are elected by/of God, as we are trying to make sure that we are ones to place faith in jesus Christ!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This post (and the following) by Allan was excellent and should answer your question thoroughly.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1688021&postcount=49

WD.... I really dont have a question. I just dont see it that way.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You should qualify this with "most" calvinists

I have.....most Calvinists do not take it to fatalistic ends. Even the 1689 puts a stop to that thinking. To become a fatalist, you'd have to believe that people have absolutely no freedom & that God ultimately is the author of Evil. I do not know one Calvinist that would cop to that.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me ask a question of us all. Were you saved against your will?. Did God drag you kicking and screaming into the kingdom of Heaven? Are you now saved, but wish you weren't?

The answer to the "puppetmaster" question will be found in our own salvation experience.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Such as this crazy idea that God is controling people like robots, or pieces on a chess board, with the free will of the people non-existant. Or this idea that people do not "choose" to recieve Christ, or that in eternity past God decided to damn millions of human beings to hell simply because he chose to.

How many times do you need to be told that people are not robots in Calvinism, but you continue to try to drive home a point that isnt there. I then told you I didnt choose to receive Christ, but you deny that also. Third, God did not damn anyone......men through their sin nature damned themselves. God showed mercy to whomever He chose to save.....because he did not have to save anybody, we could all have rotted in hell. You should be on your hands & knees thanking Him rather than attacking Him. Im sorry, your like the guy who works a full day in the field & gets paid the same as the guy who comes in to work a half day. Of course its not fair to your way of thinking but then again your not the boss, the Almighty Creator of the Universe has reign over what He will do......you however stand there & claim that He is unfair. :laugh:

Bro, you keep your Arminian, Weslyian, Non-Cal, No Cal, Low Cal, Semi Pelagian, Pelagian what ever thoughts & ideas to yourself thank you & may God help you....I will have none of it!

Done with this conversation.