Does Calvanism REALLY Turn God Into A Puppet master us Into puppets?

[JesusFan]

Let me ask a question of us all. Were you saved against your will?. Did God drag you kicking and screaming into the kingdom of Heaven? Are you now saved, but wish you weren't?

The answer to the "puppetmaster" question will be found in our own salvation experience.

Well, IF the Arminians among the bethren are true, SOME of them just might not want to keep saved, and go reject Jesus Christ!

(Yes, that part is in "official" Arminianism)

 

[quantumfaith]

Thing on this is that I do NOT see God as simply "choosing " to dump of humans into hell, because he delights in seeing them spending an Eternity suffering...

instead, God provided the atonment/provision for Him to be able to intervene into a race of Humans who ALL were deserving of hell, ALL were sinful creatures who rebel against God in thoughts and deeds daily...

He could have decided to let us ALL go there, But chose to allowing for some to be redeemed, and to spend eternity in his presense...

Look at it this way...

those who are not the Elect, and ONLY God knows who they are, will never worry about their spiritual standing before God any ways, as dead to God, being totally depraived...

Those of us worried about those things should be rejoicing, as pretty good sign that we are elected by/of God, as we are trying to make sure that we are ones to place faith in jesus Christ!

Sorry JF, if I were a calvinist, I certainly could not see myself rejoicing that I had won the salvation lottery and the poor schmuck down the street didnt.

 

[JesusFan]

Sorry JF, if I were a calvinist, I certainly could not see myself rejoicing that I had won the salvation lottery and the poor schmuck down the street didnt.

How would you know though which one 'won/lost " the Spiritual Lottery?

Since God alone knows His own, can still take Christ to all peoples, as only God knows who were His elected ones!

 

[Winman]

Yes, Calvinists come across as being heartless, just like their concept of God. As long as they believe themselves elect, it seems to matter little to them if others go to hell. In fact, they believe it glorifies God. Boy, Calvinism inspires such great love for your fellow man, what a great religion!

But if you read JFs last paragraph, he is not even sure if he is elect. Of course, if you believe Jesus only died for SOME men, then you could not be sure he died for you.

Hopefully he will see Jesus died for all men, then he can know Jesus certainly died for him and have real assurance.

 

[quantumfaith]

Well, IF the Arminians among the bethren are true, SOME of them just might not want to keep saved, and go reject Jesus Christ!

(Yes, that part is in "official" Arminianism)

Here is article 5 of the remonstrance, the one in question I think.

Article 5. That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is even through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft of power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ's hands....But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, or turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scriptures, before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our minds

 

[quantumfaith]

How would you know though which one 'won/lost " the Spiritual Lottery?

Since God alone knows His own, can still take Christ to all peoples, as only God knows who were His elected ones!

The honest truth is that none of us KNOW these things, save for relying on some scripture which gives us solace with respect to our condition and destiny.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, Calvinists come across as being heartless, just like their concept of God. As long as they believe themselves elect, it seems to matter little to them if others go to hell. In fact, they believe it glorifies God. Boy, Calvinism inspires such great love for your fellow man, what a great religion!

But if you read JFs last paragraph, he is not even sure if he is elect. Of course, if you believe Jesus only died for SOME men, then you could not be sure he died for you.

Hopefully he will see Jesus died for all men, then he can know Jesus certainly died for him and have real assurance.

Well, I KNOW that i am elected by God, has have trusted in Jesus Christ to save me, and am persuaded by both witness of the HS in me and the promises recorded in the Bible..

And I DO hold that Jesus died as the propiation for ALL people, took sins of all humans at the Cross, its just ONLY effectual towards/apllied to those who are the called and chosen of God!

 

[Winman]

Well, I KNOW that i am elected by God, has have trusted in Jesus Christ to save me, and am persuaded by both witness of the HS in me and the promises recorded in the Bible..

And I DO hold that Jesus died as the propiation for ALL people, took sins of all humans at the Cross, its just ONLY effectual towards/apllied to those who are the called and chosen of God!

You say you know because you have trusted Jesus, but you believe faith is a work, therefore you are trusting in your own works.

And how do you KNOW you are elect, did God come down and tell you so?

Isn't it possible you could be self deceived like those who said, Lord, Lord, yet Jesus said he never knew them?

This is what happens when you do not believe man capable of real saving faith. You believe only God can give you this real faith, but you have no way of knowing this has really taken place in your life. The unregenerate in your view cannot even understand what true saving faith is, so how in the world can you possibly recognize it?

 

[JesusFan]

You say you know because you have trusted Jesus, but you believe faith is a work, therefore you are trusting in your own works.

And how do you KNOW you are elect, did God come down and tell you so?

Isn't it possible you could be self deceived like those who said, Lord, Lord, yet Jesus said he never knew them?

This is what happens when you do not believe man capable of real saving faith. You believe only God can give you this real faith, but you have no way of knowing this has really taken place in your life. The unregenerate in your view cannot even understand what true saving faith is, so how in the world can you possibly recognize it?

well...

again, the promise of His word to us is that ALL who call upon the name of the Lord, Jesus, shall be saved...

Apostle John promises me that I CAN KNOW that I have right here and now Eternal Life in Son of God, Jesus Christ

per Apostle Paul Holy Spriit in me bears witness to my spirit that I am a son of God....

Jesus said that "my sheep hear me and know MY voice, they WILL NOT follow after the false Sheperds"

thank God we can know and have it vonfirmed that we are saved by God, by being in Christ Jesus!

By the way...

Faith placed in Jesus NOT a work, it just what ones does in order to become saved!

 

[quantumfaith]

well...

again, the promise of His word to us is that ALL who call upon the name of the Lord, Jesus, shall be saved...

Apostle John promises me that I CAN KNOW that I have right here and now Eternal Life in Son of God, Jesus Christ

per Apostle Paul Holy Spriit in me bears witness to my spirit that I am a son of God....

Jesus said that "my sheep hear me and know MY voice, they WILL NOT follow after the false Sheperds"

thank God we can know and have it vonfirmed that we are saved by God, by being in Christ Jesus!

By the way...

Faith placed in Jesus NOT a work, it just what ones does in order to become saved!

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Alive in Christ]

EWF...

You said....

How many times do you need to be told that people are not robots in Calvinism,...

Well..one of the MAJOR points of Calvinism, that you guys trumpet over and over again, is that the elect...WILL...COME...TO...CHRIST. No if ands or buts about it, they WILL come to Christ and be saved, becuse they are the "elect", so they MUST come.

Conversely, the non-elect will...NOT...COME...TO...CHRIST. No if ands or buts. They wont come to Christ because they are the non-elect, so they CANT come.

And this was all determined eons ago before any of us even existed.


Now, if thats not robotic activity, I'd like to know what is.

 

[Winman]

well...

again, the promise of His word to us is that ALL who call upon the name of the Lord, Jesus, shall be saved...

Apostle John promises me that I CAN KNOW that I have right here and now Eternal Life in Son of God, Jesus Christ

per Apostle Paul Holy Spriit in me bears witness to my spirit that I am a son of God....

Jesus said that "my sheep hear me and know MY voice, they WILL NOT follow after the false Sheperds"

thank God we can know and have it vonfirmed that we are saved by God, by being in Christ Jesus!

By the way...

Faith placed in Jesus NOT a work, it just what ones does in order to become saved!

Classic. Show a Calvinist the weakness in his theology and suddenly he is an Arminian! You say you know because you called on Jesus, if I said that you and all your buddies here will claim I saved myself, yet that is what you are now saying!

And suddenly you say placing faith in Christ is not a work. You have turned into an Arminian!

But I don't believe you, in your next post you will say faith is a work, and calling on Jesus is saving yourself. You will say that again as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.

A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[quantumfaith]

EWF...

You said....





Well..one of the MAJOR points of Calvinism, that you guys trumpet over and over again, is that the elect...WILL...COME...TO...CHRIST. No if ands or buts about it, they WILL come to Christ and be saved, becuse they are the "elect", so they MUST come.

Conversely, the non-elect will...NOT...COME...TO...CHRIST. No if ands or buts. They wont come to Christ because they are the non-elect, so they CANT come.

And this was all determined eons ago before any of us even existed.


Now, if thats not robotic activity, I'd like to know what is.

I think writers of the syfy Star Trek The Next Generation had this classic debate in mind with the creation of the Borg.....Resistance is Futile, you will be assimilated.

 

[JesusFan]

Classic. Show a Calvinist the weakness in his theology and suddenly he is an Arminian! You say you know because you called on Jesus, if I said that you and all your buddies here will claim I saved myself, yet that is what you are now saying!

And suddenly you say placing faith in Christ is not a work. You have turned into an Arminian!

But I don't believe you, in your next post you will say faith is a work, and calling on Jesus is saving yourself. You will say that again as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.

A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Nope NOT an Arminian!

All of us are dead in our sin natures, away from God
MUST be quickened by act of God, granted grace to even be able to believe/have faith in Christ
ALL whom God has elected and chosen in Christ SHALL be saved
those not elected byt he Lord remain as they are
Spiritually deaf and dumb, continue in their own ways

 

[Alive in Christ]

Winman...

Classic. Show a Calvinist the weakness in his theology and suddenly he is an Arminian!

Ha ha! :laugh:

I know what you mean, HOWEVER...

I gotta give some props to "Jesus Fan"

Some of the calvinists on here come across so arrogantly, so smug and content in their *chosen-ness*

But I have never got even the slightest bit of that vibe from Jesus Fan. Jesus fan is definetly a moderate, balanced calvinist.

I've got no issues with JF! :thumbs:

AiC

 

[quantumfaith]

Winman...



Ha ha! :laugh:

I know what you mean, HOWEVER...

I gotta give some props to "Jesus Fan"

Some of the calvinists on here come across so arrogantly, so smug and content in their *chosen-ness*

But I have never got even the slightest bit of that vibe from Jesus Fan. Jesus fan is definetly a moderate, balanced calvinist.

I've got no issues with JF! :thumbs:

AiC

:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Nope NOT an Arminian!

All of us are dead in our sin natures, away from God
MUST be quickened by act of God, granted grace to even be able to believe/have faith in Christ
ALL whom God has elected and chosen in Christ SHALL be saved
those not elected byt he Lord remain as they are
Spiritually deaf and dumb, continue in their own ways

Show me even one verse in the scriptures that says you must be regenerated in order to have the ability to believe.

I can easily show you many that say you must believe to be regenerated.

Go ahead, show me, and I promise for each verse you show that says you have to be regenerated to believe, I will show you TWO that says you must believe to be regenerated.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Sorry JF, if I were a calvinist, I certainly could not see myself rejoicing that I had won the salvation lottery and the poor schmuck down the street didnt.

Yes, because if you were a Calvinist, you would be confident that God is Sovereign & knows what He is doing. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

 

[Amy.G]

Yes, because if you were a Calvinist, you would be confident that God is Sovereign & knows what He is doing. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

I am not a Calvinist but I am confident God knows what He's doing. I'm just not confident that you know what He's doing. :laugh:

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, because if you were a Calvinist, you would be confident that God is Sovereign & knows what He is doing. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

EWF,

I am not a calvinist.....and yet....I am still confident of these in which you seem to imply that I am not.