An Examination of Revelation 1:7: Futurism vs. Preterism

The major difference between you and me being that I have in my defense of pre-mill theology the Word of God on my side. I operate on the assumption that Jehovah can and did give us in the Bible the words to communicate in plain language those things that He wants us to know. And those words are nothing but headaches for those who think Jesus returned and set up the promised Kingdom in AD 70.

Unanswered by the preterist crowd is the issue of communion in the church assuming as they do that we are in the Kingdom. Another question would be why support missionaries or witness to the Gospel since in the kingdom, all will have knowledge of the Lord, from the least to the greatest. And how many times Logos1 do you obey the command from Jehovah to yearly visit Jerusalem? We are told that woe to those who do not do so...once the kingdom rule starts. These are questions you cannot answer without giving yourself whiplash.


The following will probably get me in trouble, but anyway...

I was thinking about this matter, the arguement for and against preterism last night. I could, if I were to be convinced by the preterist arguement, change my view on this without much personal studdering because my personal theology is basically that: personal. I'm not in the professional ministry, I don't have a blog or facebook, I'm not in the pulpit espousing my views and I keep my discussion strictly on the gospel to my friends and co-workers.

Basically theology is a hobby although I have some Bible school credits and I own books from just about every perspective and viewpoint in modern theology as well as doctrinal history and the ECFs, I have over 1000 hard copy books in my personal library on theology topics including 14 full and or multi-volume systematic theology works. I actually have more works from those of whom I disagree with than from authors I do agree with.

And not that I care what anyone (dudes and all) on the internets think about me or my beliefs and not trying to act like I have some kind of advanced knowledge on the subject. But dudes like you Logos1, (*tom and econoclass) have painted yourselves so far into a corner with what I personally call "goofball theology" that I actually pity you. I spent a couple of years studying cults like JWs and one thing becomes clear, many people stay in them long after they decide it's silly mainly because they spent so much time and effort trying to convince people it is the truth that they cannot face the chorus of "i told you so" that will come if they changed course. In a word, pride is what keeps many JWs in the fold.

I have said this many times on this forum that the real debate, at least in my mind is not dispy vs. preterist or A-mil vs. pre-mil.. The real debate is Dispensationalism vs. Covenant theology. No one can be preterist without first being Covenant, so debate with you over this preterist thing is like trying to decide what color the vanilla cake icing on your birthday cake will be this year.

When the reformed covenant theologians start talking about darby, like because darby published his views in the 1800s, a couple 100 years after the reformers and thus is a jonny-come-lately, not deserving of any crediability because he is shinny and new, that arguement is weak if you place the agruement in the hands of Scripture. New or old, this issue is not about the age of the teaching or doctrine, rather does the Bible teach your position? Is your doctrine Biblical? That is the question. If darby is such a 4 letter word in theology, then how do you (or your covenant theologian brethern) explain the Geneva Bible notes by the esteemed reformers that refer to the Roman popes as the anti-christ?

So, I may not have a blog on the internets or a book with my name on the title page or a weekly paycheck from a ministry but in spite of that handicap, I have yet, and not for lack of effort, ever found a place in the Holy Bible where Jehovah God ever cut a covenant of works or a covenat of grace or a covenant of redemption with sinful man. When I look at the New Covenant, details in Jer ch 31 and apply a small amount of brain power and study, I find that one of the reasons why the church must continue the Lords Table until the Savior returns is becaue the New Covenant, terms and conditions spelled out in Jer ch 31 await fufillment which the Savior Himself will do when He returns. It's really that simple.

 

Here's a quote from Answers.com:

"No one believed the Earth was flat (beyond present day "Flat Earthers"). This is a myth that has been perpetrated in education because of a mistake made by an early 20th century text book author. Many people were aware that the Earth was a sphere by the 3rd century B.C. Both Claudius Ptolemy and Marinus of Tyre (early geographers) proved that the Earth is a sphere. Working from data compiled centuries before, their calculations, while still inaccurate, where a great improvement on earlier work.

Christopher Columbus did not set out to prove that the world was round, but rather set out to find a faster trade route to Asia, discovering that the Earth was larger than anyone originally believed and discovering North America on behalf of European civilization. North America had been discovered by other populations before then, including the Vikings and of course the Jomon (ancestors of the Japanese), but Columbus' discovery was probably more relevant to modern civilization."

With God all things are possible, so a short time in God's time could be the almost 6000 years the earth has eaxisted and man has been in existence. So 1978 years is not that long of period to God. Since Jesus is God then to say shortly and mean 2000 years is a very short time. Man is the only one constrained by time, God isn't so why do you want to put Him in a box and say shortly would have to mean shortly to man? Again the verse in Peter shows God timetable, one day to the Lord is as a Thousand years and a Thousand years as one day, very simple straight forward, to God it has only been almost two days since Christ ascended that is a very short time. So quickly, or these things will come quickly is in God's time still very applicable.

In Luke jesus told the parable of the unjust steward it ends like this:

Luke 18: 6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The same Greek word is used tachos in Luke for God avenging his elect Speedily, as the Word Quickly in Revelation 1:1 (shortly), 3:11, Revelation 22:12 and 20. So has God avenged His elect?
We are still being persecuted, the Church was persecuted by Rome until Constantine made the church part of the Roman Governemnt in the 300's A.D.
Then many who stood for the truth were persecuted for it, Tyndale and Wycliffe in the reformation era were persecuted for their faith.
Christians in Sudan and China come to mind today and yet they have yet to be avenged, but Christ said that God would Avenge quickly, Speedily and yet 1978 years and God has not avenged so was Christ lieing to them? No God will avenge His elect and he will do it speedily. Just as Christ will return for His church and then 7 years later to set up His Kingdom speedily, quickly.
Again look at Luke it says when the Son of Man cometh, cometh where, look at the next part, " shall he find faith on the earth?" This would appear He is coming to earth again, not metorphically or spiritually but physically to the Earth. That didn't happen in 70 A.D. and His elect were not avenged in 70 A.D. because the persecution continued after that. So to say He was coming quickly means speedily when He comes it will be speedily and He will avenge His elect quickly.

 

There comes a point when discussing these things hits a cycle. And that is when it is good to just disconnect from the discussion. At least, that is the way I see it.

In my case I will be disconnecting totally from the Internet in a day or two because we are moving. I don't know how long it will be before we get totally settled in Florida.

But one thing that I think that some futurists and Preterists are in agreement about is being tired of the same arguments. I know I am.

For me they have been futile.

You answer the "Every eye will see Him" with the other very common uses of the word "see" (HORAO) like in John 16:16 used in perceptive, not visual, sense - and it makes no impression.

You answer the Zech 14 earthquake Jesus (Mt. Olives splitting) with similar apocalyptic imagery - and it makes no impression. (Also, this twofold division -west/east and north/south - accords very neatly with the historical accounts of Josephus.

Of course quoting Josephus is like quoting Anton Lavey with some people.

I will add this about Communion. It is not geared toward the end of the age. It is something that Christians are free to do, or not do. Personally I have always enjoyed Communion as Preterist just as much as earlier, even more so. Just because the texts say "until" does not mean "until - and after that no more."

Consider the promise that Christ will "reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." This does not mean that, this point being reached, the enemies are now footloose again, free to run amuck!

Another consideration concerning the assumed cessation of communion is Christ's own words:

“But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that Day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.” - Matt. 26:29

The Preterist sees this as referring to this present age.

OK, I have to keep packing.

 

I really don't see it as futile, maybe to us because we will never convince each other. But if we help others who are reading and not posting of the truth then it has been worth the effort.

So where in Florida are you going, I've worked there with my job 3 different times. It like Texas has no state income tax, I believe there is only one other state that doesn't. But anyway I wouldn't say the effort on this subject is futile at all because we never know who in the background we will convince.
I hope for futurist belief and you hope for your preterist belief.
You thought I just like debating you huh!

 

Yea, sorry, revmwc, I think I was in gloom mode for a while there. I have come to appreciate many of the comments you have made and the general tone of your remarks. Take care, and I will probably see you on the flip side.

 

We should never talk down or call names other than of course futurist and pretterist if we truly are brothers in Christ. We find the common ground of Faith in Chrsit and His subtitionary death for us, the Eschatology may never align but we need not fight or get heated over it all.

So again what part of Florida are you headed to?

 

Except that the entire Book is basically a prophecy concerning the people of Daniel, the jewish peoples, as God gives us prophecy concerning empires that would in Future over Isreal Greek and Rome especially!

Why would God be talking about future all thru the Book for his people the jews and than switch to the Church?

 

If you disagree with this view you disagree with Jesus Christ. I wonder what kind of logic applies to the Spiritual.

Only to those who aply human logic to spiritual existance.

Ever hear about television? We see the shuttles while still in outer space.

Stop it your making me laugh at the idea of someone being so uninformed.

Think about it for a moment. You have a chance to spend eternity in heaven, and you mess it up because, you rejected the one who would give it to you if only you had believed in Him.

Breaks down only in the mind of someone using human logic to understand only what the Holy Spirit could give you understanding of.

Must the English language also be interpreted. Can't you understand simple English?

No where in scripture is God ever reffered to as physcial. God is Spirit. He can't be seen by mortal men. I'm not sure if He can be sean at all I certainly haven't seen Him. God is all powerful if He wants to ride on a cloud He can there is no reason to alegorize this passage.

That's because you are unable to separate the Spiritual from the physcial.
MB

 

I don't doubt some believed that some felt the earth was the center of the universe and the sun and stars rotated around them. I have heard or read that some actually did that doesn't mean all did. Some believe in the futurist view jhust as some believe in the preterist view, every society has beliefs that others don't.

Sorry you challenge the meaning of Greek words can you provide strongs or vines or youngs or other commonly used lexicons, dictionaries or Concordances that disagree with the one's I posted.

From youngs the greek for quickly in tachu according to young's and means speedily or quickly used in Revelation 2:5, 16, 3:11, 11:14, 22:12 and 22:20.

Again upholdoing the strongs definition. Speedily He comes for His bride and then 7 years later for to be the conquering King of Israel as prophecy states and sets up His Kingdom for 1000 years.

 

I'm so glad you read it in spite of your poor humor anyway.

What can I say not one thing you presented from scripture actually backed up your theory. How does one disprove what hasn't been proved

Again there is nothing in your opening post to prove your theory.

Scripture does say every eye will see. Your suggestion disagrees with what God's word has said. Don't blame me. Man is the only one here that can lie or, believe a lie.

God's word says every eye shall see and I believe it, and you very obviously don't. So how or, why did God lie?

Don't be ridiculous. No one not even the great logos knows when Christ will come.
MB