Ezekiel’s prophecy already came true with the coming of Christianity. He said they would all have the opportunity for salvation never that they would all be saved.
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Paul’s Response to the Thessalonians Tells us the Nature & Timing of the 2nd Coming
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Ezekiel’s prophecy already came true with the coming of Christianity. He said they would all have the opportunity for salvation never that they would all be saved.
Actually it's Peter. Easy mistake to make. It's all the word of God.
2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This word "slack", "slackness" means exactly what futurists say it means.
- slowness due to perceived delay "as some men count slackness" - and Peter is simply pointing out that when it comes to the passage of time in God's perception, it could be tomorrow, it could be in a thousand years.
So yes, the passage is saying God's perception of time is not bounded as are the perceptions of "some men".
The Zechariah passage is substantially more than a passage but a whole chapter going into great detail as to the Day of the Lord of which most is unfulfilled.
Again, as I have repeatedly said, every view has it's problems.
The truth lies in the ability to discern between the literal and the metaphor which is not always discernable from the context.
That is not an indictment against preterism or futurism, just a statement of fact.
Peter starts this passage concerning the Day of the Lord with a comparison of an earthly cataclysm which engulfed the entire earth...
2 Peter 3
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
And in my view continues on in this same vein.
Also, if Christ has come and the resurrection has already happened why does sin and death still reign over men along with war (They shall learn war no more...) death, disease, famine, atrocities holocausts, etc. How long will this continue since "all has been fulfilled"?
Many modern catastrophies have outdone the AD70 sack of Jerusalem.
(like the two World Wars) Jesus said this Great Tribulation would have no parallel then in His day or now or ever.
(like the two World Wars) Jesus said this Great Tribulation would have no parallel then in His day or now or ever.
In what manner will this material universe end seeing it has the death sentence of entropy written in it's DNA?
And many other scriptural objections (1 Thess 4:15-17; Acts 1:11, etc, ect,...)
Preterists see it one way, futurists another.
HankD
We see Peter saying "one day to the Lord is as a Thousand years and a Thousand years as one day" again this is to the Lord not man.
We also see in a prayer of Moses the Man of God these words from Psalms 90 verse 4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."
A thousand years is but Yesterday in God's sight, not just Peter tells us that 1000 years is as a but So too Moses (as it is attributed too) in Psalms 90 said it too.
The point again God's shortly and quickly is based on how HE views time not us, God is not Slack Peter Said. Here is the word for that from the Greek:
Strong's Number: 1019 bradu/nw
Original Word Word Origin
bradu/nw from (1021)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Braduno brad-oo'-no
Parts of Speech TDNT
Verb None
Definition
to delay, be slow
to render slowly, retard
to be long, to tarry, loiter
He is not slow.
Look at the context of what Peter is speaking,
2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Notice He starts out with a reminder verse 1 "...
I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance" he was writing to stir their memory. There memory about what, first remember what the Prophets wrote and second remember what the Apostles taught.
Then he says this "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,". Here is what they will say "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." That sounds very similiar to the preterist claim that Chirst has already come. In fact sounds a little like this "how can you possibly believe that a thousand years to us is like a day to the Lord" (logos1 on post #23) on this thread.
He then speaks of the time of the earth being covered with water that world perished, Peter says just as this world will persih. He follows with the statement one day to the Lord is as a Thousand years and a thousand years as one day. Then verse 9 states this "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Clearly saying the Lord isn't slow to come but is "longsuffering" patiently waiting to bring men to repentence. In verse 10 He caps waht he was talking about, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." The day of the Lord is slow in coming and will be as a thief in the night. But it will come so don't lose heart brethren, it may be a while but He will come, it might even take 2000 years but it will come as a thief in the night. Because scoffers will be saying He has come or He will not come, but don't lose heart God isn't slow as some men count slowlness but is patiently working to bring men to repentence.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
It would all depend on the availability of someone in adulthood, know of any preterist in that condition?
Interesting way to NOT interprete the Bible!
God gave Ezeckiel this prophecy concering the JEWISH nation/peoples, not a refernce to Chrsitianity coming in Future!
Apostle paul said that this WAS a mystery hidden in past from prophets, that God would have a Church body comprising both jews/Gentiles
Why would God contridict paul and DID reveal age of Church to prophet?
Hello Hank,
So if I’m reading this right you are backing off the position of one day with the Lord literally equals a thousand years for men. A wise and true decision. This still doesn’t suggest that Christ’s return will be thousands of years in the future. All references to his return are in the near term relevant to the first generation believers.
If Paul was wrong about the near return of Christ then he was not inspired and if he was not inspired then we can’t really trust anything he says. Take away the near return of Christ and everything Christianity is build on crumbles.
It didn’t engulf the entire earth as we commonly use the term—but as people in Peter’s day use the term—i.e. the Mediterranean sea. Same as when Genesis says all the people of the world came to Egypt to buy grain—it didn’t mean the people in North and South America—just the Mediterranean area.
So if I’m reading this right you are backing off the position of one day with the Lord literally equals a thousand years for men. A wise and true decision. This still doesn’t suggest that Christ’s return will be thousands of years in the future. All references to his return are in the near term relevant to the first generation believers.
If Paul was wrong about the near return of Christ then he was not inspired and if he was not inspired then we can’t really trust anything he says. Take away the near return of Christ and everything Christianity is build on crumbles.
It didn’t engulf the entire earth as we commonly use the term—but as people in Peter’s day use the term—i.e. the Mediterranean sea. Same as when Genesis says all the people of the world came to Egypt to buy grain—it didn’t mean the people in North and South America—just the Mediterranean area.
Hey Rev,
By extending your logic the bible has no meaning to man at all in it. When you say the way God views time not us then it loses any context for us. So if we apply the same principal to salvation and God says saved by faith—it means as he views saved by faith not us so we don’t know what it really means. Same with the resurrection – apply the same logic and we don’t have a clue what it means. The whole bible becomes meaningless when we can’t relate to the context in it.
There seems to be more than a little confusion here
Paul simply told the Thessalonians that Christ had not returned yet and he was not slow to keep his promises—he didn’t say he would be thousands of years in the future coming—but clearly said there would be “those of us alive” the “us” means those he is writing to in his generation—he didn’t say a future generation. How can something so plain and simple get so twisted? That takes a lot of effort.
By extending your logic the bible has no meaning to man at all in it. When you say the way God views time not us then it loses any context for us. So if we apply the same principal to salvation and God says saved by faith—it means as he views saved by faith not us so we don’t know what it really means. Same with the resurrection – apply the same logic and we don’t have a clue what it means. The whole bible becomes meaningless when we can’t relate to the context in it.
There seems to be more than a little confusion here
Paul simply told the Thessalonians that Christ had not returned yet and he was not slow to keep his promises—he didn’t say he would be thousands of years in the future coming—but clearly said there would be “those of us alive” the “us” means those he is writing to in his generation—he didn’t say a future generation. How can something so plain and simple get so twisted? That takes a lot of effort.
There is no contradiction here. Paul said the jew and gentile are equal before God now. That was the mystery he spoke of. Being a Jew didn’t profit you any longer.
He didn’t say all the Jewish people or nation would be saved, but that they would have the opportunity to be saved.
LOL, when you become a preterist we will rally on you sir Thomas
They will be saying there stands Sir Thomas of Preteristdom like a stonewall. Rally on Thomas boys.
I see you continue to put God in a box. Time for you means that it MUST conform to how you see it and God must use the worlds way of timing, God can't do things for His Divine purpose in your view. He can't wait a long time in man's view to fulfill prophecy because the word "quickly" and "shortly" must mean in your view how man views it, not how God, The Father, God the Son and God The Holy Spirit see time. Since it is the Holy Spirit guides us to see Spiritual Things as God does not as man does. The nearly 2000 years of time that christ has been delayed Christ in returning makes perfect sense to those guided by the Holy Spirit. We must view scripture as guided by the Holy Spirit not as natural men, 1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Looks like we need to discern scripture "Spirtually" with the guidence of the Holy Spirit not as mankind would see it.
As for time we see many examples that take us out of the realm of man's view for example, the sun didn't go down while the Jewish people were in battle in Joshua time and the sun didn't role back for Hezikiah in God's promise of extending His life that would be out charecter for TIME. But yet we are told exactly that the sun didn't set for nearly a whole day and the sun did role backward to prove Gods promise to Hezikiah.
The Psalmist says in Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Then Peter says
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
You say you once heald the dispie view but you seem to not heed these verses.
This would seem to apply to you you failed to "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." By you logos you seem to say well the "ye" would only apply to thaose of the day it was written, that is the way you interpret the bible, none of it can apply to us. Here is your what you stated, ""those of us alive” the “us” means those he is writing to in his generation" so that would mean ALL scripture falls that way. SAlvation is not promised to us by your logic but only those it was spoken too or written too at that place in time. Paul told the Romans in chapter 10 verse 13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." that would by your view only applies to the Romans.
Yet those verses apply to all who read them as do the promise of His coming. Your arguement that "ye" or "us" in the passages for the future only applies to the generation it was written doesn't hold water. The whole bible would mean nothing to anyone in our time because as you say "means those he is writing to in his generation" so it only applies to those that were written too or that it was spoken too.
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Look brother, we are just spinning the proverbial wheels here. You know what I believe. The return of Christ is yet in the future because of the monumentous amount of unfulfilled scripture concerning His return. The 2 Peter passage shows that the terms "soon", "near" used of that return is subjective to God's discretionary view of "soon".
Apply that to this inspired passage
1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The phrases "soon" and "quickly" were not used as we commonly use the term but subjective to God and His venue/plan as Peter clearly showed the complainers about the "slackness" of the Lord concerning His return.
Though He has been gone these nearly 2000 years it's only as if it were a day or two to Him.
I ask you again, if Christ has come and the resurrection has already happened why then does sin and death still reign over planet earth along with war (which according to scripture will no longer exist) death, disease, famine, atrocities holocausts, etc and getting increasingly worse?
Why are there still cemetries being populated with corpses?
If 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is a done deal (as you say) what hope do you and I have since Jesus has come and gone (as you say)? Please supply the scripture as applies to believers after the 1 Thessalonians 4 event.
Many modern catastrophies have outdone the AD70 sack of Jerusalem.
(like the two World Wars) Jesus said this great tribulation (supposedly the sack of Jerusalem) would have no parallel then in His day or now or ever.
(like the two World Wars) Jesus said this great tribulation (supposedly the sack of Jerusalem) would have no parallel then in His day or now or ever.
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
The AD70 destruction is disqualified by this Scripture compared to events which followed such as WWII with a total of approximately 50 souls killed (20 million in the Jewish Holocaust alone) in 5 years.
HankD
Taking stock
Well Rev let’s take stock of where we are:
1. All the verses that pertain to the time of Christ return in the New Testament say it will be soon.
2. No verses in the NT say it will be along time in the future.
3. In Thessalonians Paul mentions those of us who are alive which is written to a specific audience regardless how hard you try to take it away from them through desperate twisting and torturing of the verses.
4. God’s use of time is not foreign to us as you want and wish and need to claim it is since in the book of Daniel he told him to shut it up that it was for a long time in the future. Futurists just have no answer to this compared to the guidance of his return being near in the New Testament it proves beyond any shadow of a doubt God uses time with humans in a way that makes sense to them and in a way they can relate to it.
5. All prophecy concerning Israel pertains to the Israel of biblical times when Israel was in a covenant relationship with God. No prophecy concerning Israel would have any meaning beyond their covenant relationship which limits it to all being fulfilled by 70 AD.
6. Jesus said all things would be fulfilled in this generation to the people he was talking to. There is just no legit way to twist that into some future generation.
7. When in Matt 24:3 the disciples ask the question when shall Christ return and the end of the age be these two events are linked together and Christ doesn’t separate them in his arguments we obviously know they are happening at the same time. The end of the Old covenant Jewish age is the time of Christ’s return.
I could just keep going on and on but what is the point. The bible, Christ, the apostles, the time statements all tie in together and reinforce one another that Christ would return in the near future of Christ’s generation and all prophecy would be fulfilled in their generation. It’s clear, it’s precise, and it’s indisputable.
To twist the scriptures otherwise devalues the Holy Word of God and is the height of arrogance.
Well Rev let’s take stock of where we are:
1. All the verses that pertain to the time of Christ return in the New Testament say it will be soon.
2. No verses in the NT say it will be along time in the future.
3. In Thessalonians Paul mentions those of us who are alive which is written to a specific audience regardless how hard you try to take it away from them through desperate twisting and torturing of the verses.
4. God’s use of time is not foreign to us as you want and wish and need to claim it is since in the book of Daniel he told him to shut it up that it was for a long time in the future. Futurists just have no answer to this compared to the guidance of his return being near in the New Testament it proves beyond any shadow of a doubt God uses time with humans in a way that makes sense to them and in a way they can relate to it.
5. All prophecy concerning Israel pertains to the Israel of biblical times when Israel was in a covenant relationship with God. No prophecy concerning Israel would have any meaning beyond their covenant relationship which limits it to all being fulfilled by 70 AD.
6. Jesus said all things would be fulfilled in this generation to the people he was talking to. There is just no legit way to twist that into some future generation.
7. When in Matt 24:3 the disciples ask the question when shall Christ return and the end of the age be these two events are linked together and Christ doesn’t separate them in his arguments we obviously know they are happening at the same time. The end of the Old covenant Jewish age is the time of Christ’s return.
I could just keep going on and on but what is the point. The bible, Christ, the apostles, the time statements all tie in together and reinforce one another that Christ would return in the near future of Christ’s generation and all prophecy would be fulfilled in their generation. It’s clear, it’s precise, and it’s indisputable.
To twist the scriptures otherwise devalues the Holy Word of God and is the height of arrogance.
It’s not spinning wheels by a long shot Hank. You are no more of a dispensationalists than I was till I learned how the bible was meant to be read. When you read it through the eyes of the first century reader instead of eyes of John Darby in the 1800’s looking for a future return of Christ, restoration of Old Covenant Israel, and a rapture event that wasn’t even a part of his original writing—he added it after his original work which makes it so much more laughable that he would come up with this great disappearing act to bail himself out of the impossible corner he had painted himself into.
If I of all people could get a clue and learn the right way to read the bible then believe me Hank there is hope for you to.
Don’t fool yourself on God’s use of soon he clearly kind enough to work from man’s perspective which is obvious since he told Daniel to put away his book that it wasn’t for his time, but the time of the end. That clearly means it isn’t near. When Christ and the apostles tell us it is near even in their generation we need to take heed not live in denial.
We are not caught up in the atmosphere but the spiritual realm of Christ. Would it make you feel more convinced about it if those who are dead went after those who are alive?
2,000 years only a day to him—not if you read the OT and his words to Daniel. The time between Daniel and Christ was measured in hundreds of years not thousands and that was a long time off—what does that make thousands of years—clearly an indefensible reach for an honest reading of the bible.
If you read the history of the sack of Jerusalem then it can hold its own against any modern catastrophe you want to put it up against. You are hiding behind such events as the holocaust more so than taking a serious look at 70 AD. And that is understandable because it gives you cover to hold on to your futurism which must feel threaten by honest readings of the scriptures.
Look at Revelation 21: 27. The new Jerusalem is the New Covenant just expressed as a city the same way Ezekiel expressed it as a temple. Verse says nothing profane will enter. Pay close attention to where it says no one who does what is vile or false.
Obviously this isn’t some description of heaven or about the end of time. There are still people around doing vile things—they are not entering into a right relationship with Christ nor accepting His offer of Salvation. They are the unsaved who live in the New Covenant period that is without end. The age to come was the age without end—there are only two ages the present and the age to come—two covenants the present (old) and the one to come (new).
You and I should be celebrating Christ’s victory over sin death and separation from God. When we die we go straight into his presence unlike the Old Testament saints who had to wait on Christ.
Well it wasn't just John Darby but the testimony of the greater part of the church from the apostolic church fathers until now that the second return of Christ was viewed as visible and bodily.
I'm willing to let it lie here. All avenues have been gone down.
Let the readers discern.
HankD
1 & 2
Matthew 25: 1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Notice verse 5 the Bridgroom tarries while the virgins sleep and slumber, He doesn't come quickly but tarries and verse 6 He comes at midnight. The Bridegroom is Christ the 5 (Grace) virgins who were wise and prepared at His Coming represent the church. So here is one verse that says He tarries, this word in the Greek"Chronizo" means to linger, delay or taeey. That would not be a qucik return as you see it but in man's view of time a longer period.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Christ ye know not what hour your Lord cometh, in a time when they aren't watching for Him then He would return, the generaation you speak of was watching for Him, expectant waiting for His return. He come in the hour that many who were watching are falling away from the truth. So for those who are watching Christ says: 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
eware lest you be found as the :
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
When you don't expect it and begin to attack and smite your fellowservants for believing He will return because you see Him as not returning that you don't fall into that catagory.
Then He taught chpater 25.
Both show that Christ would tarry or delay His return, seems there are verses that say so. I heard a phrase the other day a quote from someone but not sure the exact wording but part of it was something to this effect "Christ return is not immediate but it is imminent" that is very true.
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3. Since the book of Thessaloninas only applies as you say to the believers there what other books should we disregard? Because if just that passage only applies to the then the whole book of 1 Tessalonians would apply just to them under your statement, "those of us who are alive which is written to a specific audience" so you are saying that we don't need to follow this admonition to the brethren because we aren't Paul's brethren in Christ:
1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
His message changed in chapter 4 to the "BRETHREN" that would make the "we" in Paul mentions as all "BRETHREN". Are we not "Brethren"?
Notice verse 13 the audience Paul is speaking too is the "Brethren":
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
The verses following are directed to the "BRETHREN":
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
So verse 14 would be "For if "we" Brethren believe that Jesus died" that is what makes us "Brethern" is faith.
verse 15 "For this we (Paul and company) say unto the Brethren" and of which we (believers today) are part.
Continuing that the "Brethren which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord", this is very apparent Paul is speaking to us as well as them for the chapter is expressly to the audience of "brethren".
Verse 17 Then the "Brethren" "which are alive and remain", again are we not part of the "Brethren" and that is the audience in which Paul was directing this chapter.
4 & 5
While He told Daniel to shut it up for the time was not imminent, He told John to seal not the book, for the time was imminent or close at hand. Yet He shows the tings in Revelation preceding as concerning Israel as well as the churches. When His messages to the churches are complete in chapter 3 of Revelation He thens shows "future" events to John. Did Christ stop dealing with the Church in 70 A.D.? We know He didn't, there have been thousands of Jews converted in this time, that sounds as if God is dealing with them as well as us. God also has given them promise upon Promise or would that be covenant upon covenant that the Messiah would REign Physically upon the trone of David, which has not yet happened, so God is not through with Israel for that Covenant to Israel. The Davidic Covenant has yet to be fulfilled. Many other Covenants God gave the Jewish people have yet to be fulfilled. For God Promised them that they would have their portions of the Land and live in peace withing that land and yet that land has never been their possession and never in peace. The Abrahamic covenant has yet to be fulfilled.
So God is not through with Israel and God uses time in His way not the way we think it should be used.
So let's see:
We see Gods timetable. What we see as many years God sees a 1000 years a day or as yesterday. Why do you think God picked the 1000 years for these verses? Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8
Several ways to look at the number 1000.
10 x 10 x 10 = 1000 10 being the number for perfection or completion of order the number 10 equals ordinal perfection.
It can also be seen a 20 x 50 = 1000, 20 the number of expectancy and 50 the number of jubilee or deliverence.
Then we can see 2000 would be 2 (division) fold 1000 thus representing the expectancy of deliverance from division.
50 x 40 = 2000 so the number of deliverence is 50 while the number 40 is the number for probation, trial and chastisement (not judgement) this would show 2000 as representing a time of probation, trial and judgement prior to deliverence and isn't the church seen in those aspects as we await the deliverence from all those things.
God doesn't arbitrarily use numbers in His Word. 7 = spiritual perfection, 5 = Grace and 2000 divide by 5 = 400 = a divinely perfect period. So we can see the period of Grace in a divinely perfect period of time.
God uses numbers to reveal things to us.
Just as He uses His timetable to deal with us, not our timetable. No matter how much you try to put God in a box He just won't fit.
6.
Let's see what He said:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Verse 33 the generation will see all the things fulfilled in the previous verse from verse 5 to 31 the generation of the apostles did not see all of it fulfilled, therefore Christ was speaking of a generation that would see "ALL these things fulfilled".
If you believe they have present each to us as to when they occured and the historical facts that they did.
For instance when was this fulfilled:
Mat 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
These are part of what must be fulfilled before this generation sahll pass.
7.
The end of the Old Covenant as you term it was to end with Daniels 70th week, that has yet to occur, the image seen by King Nebuchadnezer still has one Kingdom to be completed, the Abomination which stands in the Holy Place has yet to stand for 3 1/2 years as Daniel said it would, and as John reveals it as the image of the Beast. The church began not in 70 A.D. but we are told that 3000 men were added to the "Church" on the day of Pentacost, so that the Old Covenant would have ended with that event not in 70 A.D.
That 3 feast were fulfilled with the death burial and ressurection of Christ we see the fourth fulfilled at Petacost. The Holy Spirit coming and indwelling and filling believers, that was a sign of a new AGE or ERA whatever term you wish, but the Old Covenant with Israel did not end it was postponed. It didn't end in 70 A.D. it was postponed in 30 to 33 A.D. with the Holy Spirit coming at Pentacost.
Christ did seperate the events as did the Holy Spirit, because the destruction of the Temple is seprated by the Disciples question after the walk from the temple to the Mount of Olives, we aren't privy to the conversation on that walk, but see Christ answer as to what was to come. The destruction of the temple is not seen in the answer to the disciples He mad it very clear though that:
Mat. 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
The Abomination would stand in the temple in the Holy Place as Daniel prophesied, so that while He had said the temple would be destroyed in verse 2, He makes it clear that for 3 1/2 years the Abomination that maketh desolate would stand in the Holy Place, that hasn't occured yet. So God does deal with us in His way in His time.
It is very clear that Christ meant that the generation that saw all these signs and events fulfilled would not pass until they occured and that hasn't happend yet.
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Heheh, never ceases to amaze me how simple some of the most baffling passages really are. Thanks for turning that light on.
It IS quite clear, as per Bible..
new Jesusalem is the Heavenly City, the residing place for the saints of God, and will one day be coming down from Heaven and relocated for all Eternity right here on the "new earth!" and God and the saints abide in it forever...
All rsiding there forever are in there due to the new Covenant, but it is NOT new Covenant!
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