“Real” Ability of all God’s Creatures to Respond to the Influence of Him/Seek Truth

[Winman]

not really,,,,you presuppose that they were at one time open to God...

this is where winman goes sometime.....Jesus did not teach here or anywhere that men seek God on their own as you twist this to say,

I cannot read it for you

I doubt you have a clue what parables like the parable of the talents means. Calvinism cannot explain this.

Lk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

 

[quantumfaith]

not really,,,,you presuppose that they were at one time open to God...

this is where winman goes sometime.....Jesus did not teach here or anywhere that men seek God on their own as you twist this to say,

I cannot read it for you

I did not ask you to "read it for me".

 

[Gershom]

You are unable to come because you are unwilling to come. Unable means you don't have the ability and something is keeping your from that. In this case, it's your will that's keeping you. So in that sense, you are unable.

I don't think so, brother. You may be able, yet unwillingly. I am able to wake up at 4 am, but I am not willing to do that, so I set the alarm for 5am. If I am unwilling to wake up at 4 am it doesn't mean I am not able to do so.

When Romans 3:11 says none seek Him, it is not because they are unable, but because they are not willing.

 

[Iconoclast]

I doubt you have a clue what parables like the parable of the talents means. Calvinism cannot explain this.

I know what it means.....unlike the winman storytime version..in which you divorce it from the rest of scripture and make up your own story...of what you would like it to say.

 

[jbh28]

I don't think so, brother. You may be able, yet unwillingly. I am able to wake up at 4 am, but I am not willing to do that, so I set the alarm for 5am. If I am unwilling to wake up at 4 am it doesn't mean I am not able to do so.

When Romans 3:11 says none seek Him, it is not because they are unable, but because they are not willing.

Sorry, but your alarm clock has nothing to do with this. Romans 3 speaks about that none seek him. Other passages that deal with the corruptness of the heart show why. Man is unable on his own to come to Christ. Anything else has man with natural spiritual ability, which is completely false.

 

[Iconoclast]

I did not ask you to "read it for me".

that was addressed at winman...he misreads the intent of the passage

 

[Gershom]

Sorry, but your alarm clock has nothing to do with this. Romans 3 speaks about that none seek him. Other passages that deal with the corruptness of the heart show why. Man is unable on his own to come to Christ. Anything else has man with natural spiritual ability, which is completely false.

OK. Take care.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast

jbh,
the context does not matter....aic just wants to repost the falsehood of this supposed special light given to everyman...without exception...then claim calvinism is wrong..

Calvinism is not always wrong. Sometimes its correct, just like the free will side. One area where it is correct is 100% eternal security.

But calvinism is monsterously wrong in some areas. Surely you dont believe Calvinism is completely correct about everything, do you? That would make Calvin just like God, and I know you dont believe that.

he posts the same post over and over, no matter what you say.

And in time I believe that myself, and others, will...with our due diligence...help those in error to finally start to "see the light"

 

[Iconoclast]

aic

Calvinism is not always wrong. Sometimes its correct, just like the free will side. One area where it is correct is 100% eternal security.

But calvinism is monsterously wrong in some areas. Surely you dont believe Calvinism is completely correct about everything, do you? That would make Calvin just like God, and I know you dont believe that.

Calvinism is correct.......and it is correct because it is scriptural, and does not have much to do with Calvin at all.

The scriptures teach it....many others have seen it

hiding behind human names does not answer the questions,
many have believed the teaching before hearing or reading Calvin

 

[Alive in Christ]

The word of Iconoclast....

AIC says that God will give everyman "special" revelation..even though the bible says that is not so.

The word of God....

John 1: 6-9... There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world

Rev 7: 9-10....

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

There have been many many tribes and nations that grew...then died out completly, with the people having never heard of Jesus.

Yet these scriptures make clear that every tribe, every tongue, and every country that ever existed is represented in heaven.

Not SOME of them. ALL of them....

All ,nations, ALL tribes, All peoples, and All tongues.

Its obvious that many of these people never heard of Jesus Christ or the gosple...yet...here they are... In heaven.

I am CERTAINLY not suggesting Universalism.

I am saying that many of these ones who never heard the Gosple in the normal way....DID hear it some other way.

If they didnt, what are they doing in heaven?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

More scriptural support...

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.

After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 8:10-11)

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. In the past, he let all nations go their own way. Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy."

Indeed, when Gentiles , who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,

YOU say they are automadically damned because of unfortunate circumstanses out side of their control. (Darn the luck!)

GOD says...."Not so fast, my friend...not so fast!

God is a great and awesome God. He is a million times a better evangelist then we are. If there are people living and dying on some little island somewhere that WE have have never got to yet, God is surely been evangelizing those dear people. He is giving them the opportuity to make the right choice, just like those of us who have heard the gosple in the normal way.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...

More scriptural support...

AIC......good to see all these verses you offered:thumbsup::applause:
you said

YOU say they are automadically damned because of unfortunate circumstanses out side of their control. (Darn the luck!)

1] there is no luck...only God's predetermined plan, and providence

2]sinners are damned because being dead in adam...they remain and die in their sins unless God saves them.....I did not say it...Jesus did.

23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
[/Q

GOD says...."Not so fast, my friend...not so fast!



I am not sure where you think God is saying this:



God is a great and awesome God. He is a million times a better evangelist then we are. If there are people living and dying on some little island somewhere that WE have have never got to yet, God is surely been evangelizing those dear people. He is giving them the opportuity to make the right choice, just like those of us who have heard the gosple in the normal way.

If there are elect there God will get the gospel to them. That is what you are getting at right AIC?

 

[Benjamin]

If there are elect there God will get the gospel to them.

Do you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected? I would like to see how you handle a situation where a person is struggling with faith ...actually, on second thought I wouldn't and you wouldn't want to preach that dogma in front on me.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

I said....

"Not so fast, my friend...not so fast!

And you said...

I am not sure where you think God is saying this

Sorry bout that. You obviously dont watch a lot of college football.

Just think of it as a way of saying "you are wrong"

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

I said...

You say they are automadically damned because of unfortunate circumstanses out side of their control. (Darn the luck!)

And you said...

there is no luck...only God's predetermined plan, and providence. sinners are damned because being dead in adam...they remain and die in their sins unless God saves them.

But in your view, God is totally impotent, and can not save them because the missionaries wont get there for another 700 years or so. Which means we are back to square 1...they are automadically damned to hell, by God, because of unfortunate circumstanses out side of their control. (Darn the luck)

I did not say it...Jesus did.

I seriously can not concieve of our Lord having anything but contempt for the scenerios you are advocating.

If there are elect there God will get the gospel to them. That is what you are getting at right AIC?

Absolutely not.

If God knows that nobody will bring the gosple to these people for 700 years, then the scriptures I posted make a good case for God giving them enough spiritual enlightenment that they can make a heartfelt choice for Gods option, rather than choosing any of the other counterfiets that might be popular.in thier culture.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected? I would like to see how you handle a situation where a person is struggling with faith ...actually, on second thought I wouldn't and you wouldn't want to preach that dogma in front on me.

Hello Benjamin

Do you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected?

Benjamin.....I take the conversation wherever it needs to go;

1] We are all sinners,having broken God's law in thought word and deed.

2] God is holy and has planned to punish all sin.....either in the sinner, or In His appointed substitute

3] Jesus came to save a multitude of sinners, by offering His sinless perfect life as a substitute for those sinners who believe in Him.

4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to repent of all known sin,and seek God's mercy. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

5] Jesus is the only way..the only thing the Father is well pleased with.

6] If someone repents and believes the gospel,I explain that God would have them join with a bible believing fellowship,that is the local church.

Benjamin.. if the person has some religious backround,or brings up certain questions that require me to speak about God's electing purposes I am not shy about that. It has happened many times....it goes something like this;

I might offer some of what i offered above...then the person starts to question...what about the heathen, or what if someone never hears about Jesus etc.

1] I explain God has an eternal purpose that He has made known to the church,and establish that the scriptures are true and trust worthy.

2] God's holy law is perfectly just...and must be perfectly kept

3] Man having fallen in Adam ...is not able to keep the law perfectly

4] God seeing all mankind as fallen In Adam...has purposed to save a multitude of sinners In Christ.

5] The Father gives this multitude to the Son before the world was made.

6] The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.

7] The Son has promised that each and everyone of these persons...at a point in time....will repent and believe the gospel not one will be lost

8] I ask the person if Jesus said all that are given will come to Him...have you came to Jesus savingly yet? If not why not. I do my best to leave them with no hope...outside of Jesus....

9] I quote Jesus words to those in jn8
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
and Hebrews 7;
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them

As I say...if the conversation goes this way...I will go this way.

and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected

Benjamin...this is a good question...
I never say it that way....

1] I do not know if he is elect or not

2] He does not know if he is elect or not

3] I make Clear that Jesus alone is the only Saviour of sinners

4] if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel.
5] I stress that the issue he needs to concern himself with..is His sin against a Holy God that has to be paid for.....He is responsible to repent and believe the gospel command.

6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

7] I do not give Him false hope, I do not give him no hope.....just point out that the only Hope is In Jesus...not remaining in Adam.

Benjamin....

and you wouldn't want to preach that dogma in front on me

I would have no trouble preaching the bible truth in front of you...as you cannot change it. God's truth stands. The Apostles had no problem whatsoever writing this truth to all the new churches...we should not have trouble with it.
Let me know if you would like clarification on this.

 

[Winman]

double post

 

[Winman]

2] He does not know if he is elect or not

Wow, that must be a fantastically encouraging thing to hear for someone that is struggling.

So, how do you know you are elect?

 

[Iconoclast]

Wow, that must be a fantastically encouraging thing to hear for someone that is struggling.

So, how do you know you are elect?

Winman
thanks for your concern. We are to be faithful to peoples souls, not be so concerned to encourage a sinner in His rebellion.
jeremiah saw that evil in his day;

13For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.

14They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

winman...is this how you would handle a soul?

So, how do you know you are elect?[/

Anyone who savingly repents and believes the gospel is elect...even some reluctant arminians who do not realize it yet.
That is the point winman....everyone believing and continuing to believe is one of the elect.[whether on not they totally understand the doctrine]

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...

I said...



And you said...



But in your view, God is totally impotent, and can not save them because the missionaries wont get there for another 700 years or so. Which means we are back to square 1...they are automadically damned to hell, by God, because of unfortunate circumstanses out side of their control. (Darn the luck)

AIC...The God I worship knows the end from the beginning...so your ridiculous idea that missionaries would not get there for a long time is almost beyond belief. AIC....your ideas of God are way to small.
God has determined the ends and the means. Your post ignores this revealed fact,and seriously causes one to question what you believe about truthI seriously can not concieve of our Lord having anything but contempt for the scenerios you are advocating.

AIC...apparently that is because you are void of understanding the view I and others hold forth....you do not seem to "get it"...because when you comment,it does not correspond to the post you are trying to answer.
You are trying to hard to figure it out...be careful not to strain yourself.Absolutely not.

If God knows that nobody will bring the gosple to these people for 700 years,

What I posted was that if God has His elect anywhere in the world , He will get missionaries to them.....I said nothing of a delay...this is your own confused thoughts....God has not forgot who He elected.
Jesus has died a covenant death for the elect sheep...he will seek and save everyone of them without exception. Your false idea leads you to suggest that the god you speak of wants to save everyone...but cannot...so he next sends some special light...to get himself off the hook,and leave it up to man.


then the scriptures I posted make a good case for God giving them enough spiritual enlightenment that they can make a heartfelt choice for Gods option, rather than choosing any of the other counterfiets that might be popular.in thier culture.

This theory is completely bogus...and I believe you might be one of the few who would even come up with this strange notion:BangHead: