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Does God always get what he ultimately wants?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Jul 13, 2011.

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  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It seems to us Calvinists that many people want to CLAIM they believe in the Sovereignty of God while undermining it by saying that MOST things that happen everyday in our world are NOT the will of God.
    Like, for examples, every ounce of pain, every bit of mistreatment, all death and, the perishing of ANY soul.
    He didn't want them to happen.
    He knew they would but never intended that they happen.

    We say, "So you guys are saying that God has FORFEITED his sovereignty to man in this world, right?"

    Then the emphatic, "NO!! NO!! God has sovereignly made man sovereign!" (or something to that effect).

    Of course this makes no sense.

    Who is in charge? That's what sovereignty is about.

    Who is getting his way? Who is controlling things?

    If God has made MAN sovereign then God has FORFEITED his sovereignty.

    Now these people believe that God is powerful enough to take it back when he wants to, but the FACT- I mean the plain simple FACT is that until he does, MAN is sovereign in this world.

    There is suffering, not because God always intended that there be suffering, but because MAN has brought it to pass AGAINST the will of God.
    Man controls suffering in this world. Man is the sovereign ruler over suffering.

    Since their is WAY more people suffering than not, MAN rules, at LEAST most of this world.


    Here is the matter at hand:

    Did God PURPOSE everything that ever happens?

    Is everything that ever happens, from the horrible death of a child to the perishing of an eternal soul, fulfilling the ULTIMATE purpose of God which he purposed before the foundation of the world?

    Did God always intend for everything to happen as it has and will?

    When a man goes to hell, is he thwarting the purposes of God or is he fulfilling that eternal purpose of God? Did God always intend and purpose and ultimately WILL (not proximately but remotely) that that man go to hell?



    In conclusion, this is not about how many verses teach, in your opinion, that God is not Sovereign right now.

    This is about getting these people to admit that they do not believe in the current Sovereignty of God.

    We can discuss the verses that seem to TEACH that God is not sovereign later.

    Right now simply answer and explain this:

    Does everything that happens happen according to the ultimate purpose and will of God or is man thwarting the purposes and ultimate will of God?
     
    #1 Luke2427, Jul 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2011
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Maybe you should explain Gods permissive will.
     
    #2 Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 13, 2011
  3. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    God is in control of all things, at all times. This does not make Him the "author" of sin as some erroneously and hastily confirm toward we who hold to the truth and to DoG, but as God, it has to be, if He is in fact God, that yes, He is ultimately in control of all things. It is hard for some to accept this and they can't distinguish how these things work and how God is immutable and Holy in all of it. The sinfulness of man and the fall have been allowed, and the consequences thereof by God Himself.

    Semi-pelagian theology and thought have exalted man to sovereignty that trancends that even of God Himself, to man being in control of destiny, and to being capable without divine aid to finding God in ones own natural abilities. All of this teaching brazenly denies Gods Sovereign rule.


    - Peace
     
    #3 preacher4truth, Jul 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2011
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Regardless, if God permits it, it is because it serves his purpose.

    By permitting something to happen that he intended to happen he is still bringing it to pass for his own purposes and it is still occurring in accordance with the ultimate will and purposes of God.
     
    #4 Luke2427, Jul 13, 2011
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    As I see it gentlemen, it is all about ones point of perseption. Yesterday as I explained my perseption of "Free Will" Doctrinal belief, I was corrected by several Free Willers (if I might call them that) that my own perspectives were quite niaeve & incorrect. Rather, I didnt get the feeling that on either side of the camp that either group believes that God is not sovereign rather both believe in some sort of permissive will where god gives an allowable limited free will but he is well aware of all the going on's. however let me once & for all emphasize that God cannot & does not sin....rather it is the creature through his own will that commits the sin. With that said, let the match begin.
     
    #5 Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 13, 2011
  6. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Does God always get what he ultimately wants?
    Sometimes He does not get what He wants.

    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not!

    However, "ultimately" the Jews will receive Him as their Messiah but not without great persecution during the Great Tribulation.
    So God IS sovereign and He will work all His purposes, but not apart from the human will. It is a mystery how He is able to do this, but He does.



    If that's what your OP is about, it will fail miserably because no one on this board is going to admit God is not sovereign and it's not your job to try and make them admit something that isn't true.
     
    #6 Amy.G, Jul 13, 2011
  7. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Agree that in the Ultimate sense the Lord has retained full soverneighty, but there is also a place for personal responsiblity and accountinble to others na dtheir decisions...

    believe as a condition of the fall of Satan and then Adam though...

    Creation NOT running under same rulership of God as originally laid out, but that God has allowed for His creations to have "limited free will" and does have absolute control over using their decisions to suit his Divine purposes!

    God did NOT tell Hitler tio murder the Jewish race, but he knew what would be done, and intervened to establish Isreal again as a direct result of the Holocust!

    per the OP directly...

    God will have His Divine Plans and Will fulfilled, its just that sometimes gets done by Him directly, others by decisions that He permitted others to make!
     
    #7 JesusFan, Jul 13, 2011
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  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Good post. In addition He "ultimately" wants us not to sin...yet we still do. Does that mean He is not sovereign? Absolutely not...it means IN His sovereignty He grants and allows certain things to happen and occur. Sovereign means in control...not controlling.

    No idea why any believe would try to get another believer to state a deliberate lie...
     
    #8 webdog, Jul 13, 2011
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Sovereignty means that WHATEVER God purposes in His Mind to accomplish will be brought to pass

    that He can use either determined/permitted to bring it to pass

    That he can at ALL times intervene at any time into a situation and have His will done

    he still retains ability to have "full free will" as he can still override choices when He determines too!
     
    #9 JesusFan, Jul 13, 2011
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Sovereign is defined as "One that exercises supreme, permanent authority". You have added much to this definition that could or could not be true.
     
    #10 webdog, Jul 13, 2011
  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    That is the problem in my view- people won't be honest.

    They do not believe that God is Sovereign but they will not admit it.

    And you did not answer the question: Does everything that happens happen according to the ultimate purpose and will of God or is man thwarting the purposes and ultimate will of God?
     
    #11 Luke2427, Jul 13, 2011
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    The question is not, "Did God TELL Hitler to do this."

    The question is, "Did god purpose for Hitler to do it in eternity past? Was Hitler fulfilling the purposes of God? Did God, before he made the world plan and intend for Hitler to do what he did?"

    No one has said anything about God telling people to do bad things. Nobody believes that. That statement doesn't address the issue.

    And no one is questioning human responsibility and accountability. That is another thread.

    This thread is simply about this: Does everything that happens happen according to the ultimate purpose and will of God or is man thwarting the purposes and ultimate will of God?
     
    #12 Luke2427, Jul 13, 2011
  13. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    God "needed" a Hitler and a Judas and a Pharoah in order to have His purposes accomplished, so He allowed them to do what they wanted to do, and used them in order to bring a greater purpose, in having His Will and Plans get accomplished through use of their evil acts!
     
    #13 JesusFan, Jul 13, 2011
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Then you do not believe in the sovereignty of God.

    You believe that MOST of what is happening in the world today is happening against the ultimate will of God.

    That God never intended it and is not controlling it. He is ALLOWING man to rule in his stead for the time being.

    You are saying exactly what I said you (these people with no systematic theology) proclaim.
     
    #14 Luke2427, Jul 13, 2011
  15. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe that Gos really does possess/have "Ultimate Free Will" though?

    that He can chose when he needs to in order have His Will accomplished, Override "free will" of created beings?
     
    #15 JesusFan, Jul 13, 2011
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I agree with that 100%, but that is not quite pointed enough to answer this very specific question.

    Did God purpose for Hitler to do what Hitler did?

    Was Hitler fulfilling the purpose of God in every single thing that he did?

    Did every Jew experience exactly as much torture and pain and death under Hitler as God intended for him to experience before the world began ?

    Try starting off your response with- YES or NO...
     
    #16 Luke2427, Jul 13, 2011
  17. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    using Hitler as this example for purpose of the OP...

    God purposed to yse in order to accomplish his plan and His Will what Hitler had decided to do...

    Don't think God directly caused the Concentration camps to come to pass, but DID predestine a Plan to accomplish a greater good from out of the horrors done by nazi germany!

    he had His Will and plan set to have Jews go back to isreal, and used Hilter and his nazi party as means to get it accomplished!

    remember, per james, God does NOT tempt nor can He be tempted, in sense of directly causing others to Sin!
     
    #17 JesusFan, Jul 13, 2011
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Sovereignty of God
    From Theopedia


     
    #18 Luke2427, Jul 13, 2011
  19. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Do you believ that God directly causes satan to do what he does on this earth?

    Does the Lord directly force satan to act out the way that he does?

    or is he permitting satan to do what he does, with Him controling the Final outcome in all things?
     
    #19 JesusFan, Jul 13, 2011
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    The question is not "Does God tempt to sin?" We know the answer to that question- no.

    The question is, "Does God INTEND and PURPOSE for sin to come to pass? Does God will it (though obviously he hates it in and of itself)?"

    Here is the question I desire for you to answer bluntly: Did EVERY SINGLE thing that Hitler did fulfill the eternal purpose of God?

    Was it God's ultimate WILL for every ounce of suffering that took place to take place?
     
    #20 Luke2427, Jul 13, 2011
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