Does God always get what he ultimately wants?

[Luke2427]

Do you believ that God directly causes satan to do what he does on this earth?

Does the Lord directly force satan to act out the way that he does?

or is he permitting satan to do what he does, with Him controling the Final outcome in all things?

I do not believe that God has anything at all to do in a direct manner with evil- NO.

God cannot do evil- period.

That is not the question at hand- Does God WILL for evil to be for the present time to fulfill his purposes?

This gets to the heart of Sovereignty.

Is God bringing to pass- not just the ENDS but the means in EVERY single event in history?

It seems you are saying God controls the ENDS but he did not purpose the means.

I think that is very problematic.

 

[jbh28]

Ephesians 1:11 "...having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will"

We have to remember the question was "ultimate" will of God. I would say that God doesn't want man to sin. Man sins. God doesn't get his will. The problem is that God does allow sin. It's his will to allow man to disobey him.

Does God always get what he ultimately wants?
Sometimes He does not get what He wants.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not!

So, the pharasees were hindering the children from coming to Christ. But of course we know that some do. I hope you realize that the "would not" isn't the children's but the pharasees.

However, "ultimately" the Jews will receive Him as their Messiah but not without great persecution during the Great Tribulation.
So God IS sovereign and He will work all His purposes, but not apart from the human will. It is a mystery how He is able to do this, but He does.

So God does his will.

 

[JesusFan]

I do not believe that God has anything at all to do in a direct manner with evil- NO.

God cannot do evil- period.

That is not the question at hand- Does God WILL for evil to be for the present time to fulfill his purposes?

This gets to the heart of Sovereignty.

Is God bringing to pass- not just the ENDS but the means in EVERY single event in history?

It seems you are saying God controls the ENDS but he did not purpose the means.

I think that is very problematic.

I am saying that God fully controls both the final results and steps to getting there, BUT that there are "agents" that he uses thatdtermine to do what they do , and God allowed/permits that to happen!

believe God has a Dtermintive and a permissive Will, but ALL things work together to/for His glory!

 

[Amy.G]

And you did not answer the question: Does everything that happens happen according to the ultimate purpose and will of God or is man thwarting the purposes and ultimate will of God?

Yes I did.
I said:

So God IS sovereign and He will work all His purposes, but not apart from the human will. It is a mystery how He is able to do this, but He does.

In His sovereignty God has created man with his own will as man is created in God's image. However, God does accomplish His purposes even though man has a will. It is something only an all powerful, sovereign God can do and we will not understand it on this side of heaven. Even you cannot grasp it no matter how educated you are.

 

[JesusFan]

Ephesians 1:11 "...having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will"

We have to remember the question was "ultimate" will of God. I would say that God doesn't want man to sin. Man sins. God doesn't get his will. The problem is that God does allow sin. It's his will to allow man to disobey him.

Key here is that God is NOT determining and causing/forcing Man to sin, that He is allowing that for His purposes!

So, the pharasees were hindering the children from coming to Christ. But of course we know that some do. I hope you realize that the "would not" isn't the children's but the pharasees.
So God does his will.

Agreed, just some of it is brought to pass by Direct causing, others through allowing others to do as they would will to based upon their "free will"

 

[Amy.G]

Then you do not believe in the sovereignty of God.

You really should stop throwing accusations around.

That God never intended it and is not controlling it. He is ALLOWING man to rule in his stead for the time being.

Actually, God has allowed Satan to be ruler of this world for the time being.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually, God has allowed Satan to be ruler of this world for the time being.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I sort of catch what you are saying, but I believe it falls short, and the passage you use doesn't prove he rules this world.

Just because Satan blinds somes minds in no way does indicate he rules this world. Jesus rules this world, all things are subject to Him. Blinding minds falls well short of proving him ruler here.

Further thoughts on this:

"...-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him." 1 Peter 3:21b-22

We see Jesus in Sovereign control of Satan. Keep in mind God also blinds lest some believe, and apparently He uses Satan in doing so: "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:40

I find it odd that so many are so willing to give Satan authority in a half heart-beat, and are so willing to strip God of His total Sovereignty for the sake of "free-will."

All things are going according to the counsel of His will; "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" Ephesians1:11

Jesus simply uses Satan according to His own will. Jesus rules this world.

- Peace

 

[JesusFan]

You really should stop throwing accusations around.




Actually, God has allowed Satan to be ruler of this world for the time being.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

God has allowed that Satan and mankind have a form of "limited free will" and that He is allowing/permitting things to happen for now

When jesus Comes to earth, setting up His Millinual Rule/Reign
Then God goes back to DIrect control, ALL things according directly to His Will and purpose, as jesus will rule with that "Iron Rod"

 

[freeatlast]

It seems to us Calvinists that many people want to CLAIM they believe in the Sovereignty of God while undermining it by saying that MOST things that happen everyday in our world are NOT the will of God.
Like, for examples, every ounce of pain, every bit of mistreatment, all death and, the perishing of ANY soul.
He didn't want them to happen.
He knew they would but never intended that they happen.

We say, "So you guys are saying that God has FORFEITED his sovereignty to man in this world, right?"

Then the emphatic, "NO!! NO!! God has sovereignly made man sovereign!" (or something to that effect).

Of course this makes no sense.

Who is in charge? That's what sovereignty is about.

Who is getting his way? Who is controlling things?

If God has made MAN sovereign then God has FORFEITED his sovereignty.

Now these people believe that God is powerful enough to take it back when he wants to, but the FACT- I mean the plain simple FACT is that until he does, MAN is sovereign in this world.

There is suffering, not because God always intended that there be suffering, but because MAN has brought it to pass AGAINST the will of God.
Man controls suffering in this world. Man is the sovereign ruler over suffering.

Since their is WAY more people suffering than not, MAN rules, at LEAST most of this world.


Here is the matter at hand:

Did God PURPOSE everything that ever happens?

Is everything that ever happens, from the horrible death of a child to the perishing of an eternal soul, fulfilling the ULTIMATE purpose of God which he purposed before the foundation of the world?

Did God always intend for everything to happen as it has and will?

When a man goes to hell, is he thwarting the purposes of God or is he fulfilling that eternal purpose of God? Did God always intend and purpose and ultimately WILL (not proximately but remotely) that that man go to hell?



In conclusion, this is not about how many verses teach, in your opinion, that God is not Sovereign right now.

This is about getting these people to admit that they do not believe in the current Sovereignty of God.

We can discuss the verses that seem to TEACH that God is not sovereign later.

Right now simply answer and explain this:

Does everything that happens happen according to the ultimate purpose and will of God or is man thwarting the purposes and ultimate will of God?

Your statements and questions are of a nature that tend to trap. It is like asking someone have you stopped beating your wife, but I will give you my understanding on the issue any way. I have to say I disagree with you on the very premise of your argument. First off the bible never says God is Sovereign although I do hold that He is I do not hold to the same interpretation you are proposing to the word Sovereign in regards to God.
Now with that let me answer your questions;

Did God PURPOSE everything that ever happens?

Absolutely not!

Is everything that ever happens, from the horrible death of a child to the perishing of an eternal soul, fulfilling the ULTIMATE purpose of God which he purposed before the foundation of the world?

Absolutely yes!

Did God always intend for everything to happen as it has and will?

Absolutely no!

When a man goes to hell, is he thwarting the purposes of God or is he fulfilling that eternal purpose of God?

Both!

Did God always intend and purpose and ultimately WILL (not proximately but remotely) that that man go to hell?

No it was not His intent.

Does everything that happens happen according to the ultimate purpose and will of God or is man thwarting the purposes and ultimate will of God?

The problem with this question is it cancels itself out by asking about the ultimate purpose and the will of God in the same sentence with the same parameters. God does not always get His will. I can give scripture but you said you did not want it.
The ultimate purpose of God is going to happen according to His will, but not all things that bring that about are in accord with His will. That makes His ultimate purpose under His Sovereignty and even that which goes against His will under His Sovereignty for the final result.
As to the second part of the question "is man thwarting the purposes and ultimate will of God"? The answer is no not in the ultimate sense.

 

[Amy.G]

I sort of catch what you are saying, but I believe it falls short, and the passage you use doesn't prove he rules this world.

I said God "allows" Satan to rule this world for now. By world I mean the system of the world. The word world in the bible almost always refers to sinful mankind. Yes, Christ rules in the hearts of believers, but Satan rules the godless, and God is allowing this.
It does not mean that God is not sovereign. Satan can do nothing apart from God's permission.

 

[Amy.G]

God has allowed that Satan and mankind have a form of "limited free will" and that He is allowing/permitting things to happen for now

When jesus Comes to earth, setting up His Millinual Rule/Reign
Then God goes back to DIrect control, ALL things according directly to His Will and purpose, as jesus will rule with that "Iron Rod"

I agree.

............

 

[Amy.G]

The problem with this question is it cancels itself out by asking about the ultimate purpose and the will of God in the same sentence with the same parameters. God does not always get His will. I can give scripture but you said you did not want it.
The ultimate purpose of God is going to happen according to His will, but not all things that bring that about are in accord with His will. That makes His ultimate purpose under His Sovereignty and even that which goes against His will under His Sovereignty for the final result.
As to the second part of the question "is man thwarting the purposes and ultimate will of God"? The answer is no not in the ultimate sense.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

I said God "allows" Satan to rule this world for now. By world I mean the system of the world. The word world in the bible almost always refers to sinful mankind. Yes, Christ rules in the hearts of believers, but Satan rules the godless, and God is allowing this.
It does not mean that God is not sovereign. Satan can do nothing apart from God's permission.

I saw and alotted the word you used "allowed." It still falls short.

I said that your verse doesn't prove he rules the world. Satan can do nothing, so it is ultimately Jesus. Did you see where all principalities are subject to Him? Thus they are only doing as he wills. So no, they aren't controlling the "world system." Jesus is.

- Peace

 

[JesusFan]

I saw and alotted the word you used "allowed." It still falls short.

I said that your verse doesn't prove he rules the world. Satan can do nothing, so it is ultimately Jesus. Did you see where all principalities are subject to Him? Thus they are only doing as he wills. So no, they aren't controlling the "world system." Jesus is.

- Peace

satan offerred the Kingdoms of this World to Jesus IF he would worship Him

jesus did not say was not a "false" offer, that he was NOT to tempt God....

Jesus also said that satan IS present ruler of this World, which I take to mean is that the Devil 'way" of doing things, way World system run is done by his ways, not the ways of God

Once jesus returns, he will "reclaim" Earth, in the sense that he once again direct rules over while earth, and its ways are now fully Gods ways!

believe God is still fully in control, just has allowed it to be that satan permitted to run it for now!

 

[preacher4truth]

satan offerred the Kingdoms of this World to Jesus IF he would worship Him

jesus did not say was not a "false" offer, that he was NOT to tempt God....

Jesus also said that satan IS present ruler of this World, which I take to mean is that the Devil 'way" of doing things, way World system run is done by his ways, not the ways of God

Once jesus returns, he will "reclaim" Earth, in the sense that he once again direct rules over while earth, and its ways are now fully Gods ways!

believe God is still fully in control, just has allowed it to be that satan permitted to run it for now!

Perhaps when Jesus was incarnated that was the case? Now? They (all principalities) are all under His Authority. Our subject at hand deals with NT theology after His Resurrection, not that in the Gospels prior to this event.

- Peace

 

[Skandelon]

Originally Posted by Earth, Wind & Fire
Maybe you should explain Gods permissive will.

Regardless, if God permits it, it is because it serves his purpose.

By permitting something to happen that he intended to happen he is still bringing it to pass for his own purposes and it is still occurring in accordance with the ultimate will and purposes of God.

Luke, I agree with E,W & F. You really need to explain your view of God's permissive will. You have equated God's permission of an event with his "bringing it to pass." This APPEARS to communicate that God's permissive will is equal to his active immediate agency.

As stated over and over, non-Calvinists often affirm the concept of God decreeing all things that come to pass when it is agreed that there are active and permissive decrees of God. Edwards and the Arminian divines agree on this point and clearly draw the distinction between those two types of decrees. I think EW&F is simply asking you to define and explain that distinction. I think we'd all be interested to hear that.

Thank you.

 

[JesusFan]

Perhaps when Jesus was incarnated that was the case? Now? They (all principalities) are all under His Authority. Our subject at hand deals with NT theology after His Resurrection, not that in the Gospels prior to this event.

- Peace

Think that the Bible never said that satan stopped being god of this earth/present age though...

that he will be permitted to set up his kingdom on earth,which Jesus demolishes at His second coming to have Kingdom of God established, he direct rules over all than again!

 

[JesusFan]

​

Luke, I agree with E,W & F. You really need to explain your view of God's permissive will. You have equated God's permission of an event with his "bringing it to pass." This APPEARS to communicate that God's permissive will is equal to his active immediate agency.

As stated over and over, non-Calvinists often affirm the concept of God decreeing all things that come to pass when it is agreed that there are active and permissive decrees of God. Edwards and the Arminian divines agree on this point and clearly draw the distinction between those two types of decrees. I think EW&F is simply asking you to define and explain that distinction. I think we'd all be interested to hear that.

Thank you.

I hold to God having a Determined/direct Will, and a permissive/allowing Will BOTH for His purposes to accomplish what He desires to be domne...

Does Luke hold to God having just a single Will than, that He predetermines all things directly?

 

[Amy.G]

Perhaps when Jesus was incarnated that was the case? Now? They (all principalities) are all under His Authority. Our subject at hand deals with NT theology after His Resurrection, not that in the Gospels prior to this event.

- Peace

What Jesusfan is referring to (I think ) is the world system now is ruled by Satan. Just turn on the news and this is clearly seen. But in the Millennium Kingdom, Jesus will return physically to earth and rule with a rod of iron (sin will not be tolerated at all). At this time Satan will be bound and cannot rule anything for 1000 years, or tempt anyone to sin.

 

[Amy.G]

Does Luke hold to God having just a single Will than, that He predetermines all things directly?

Yes. God decreed Adam's sin, your sin, my sin, Jeffery Dahmer's sin.....ect...ect.....