God: The Micromanager

It's nice to see some moderate calvinists recognize Luke's brand is not mainstream. I guess using his logic non-cal's are not the only ones in his estimation to not understand sovereignty...even 4 and 5 point calvinists don't. Not an island I want to be out on...

 

Don't think that it is the "Truth" in calvinism though that all would hold to God being the way that you described"micro managing" His creation!

He ALWAYS appeared to have some type of "free will" built into His plans and purposes...

He KNEW BOTh satan and Adam would sin and fall, but did NOT directly cause either of those decisions, but DID already have determined the :master plan" to have Him redeem out both Creation and man!

Still hold that Cal is better way to view the Theology of Sotierology than arms, but think that instead of quoting all of the time cals authors, would rather be quoting Apostles peter, John, and paul!

 

I would postulate bacl to ypu Luke that per the Bible, NOT from Calvinism, that the God of Creation has though "built" into His creation a degree of "self determination" in that per the viewpoint of creatures and of man, they are indeed making personal decisions that affect 'future events: and that God is either directly determining the outcome, or else using their "free decisons" and overriding them to be part of His overal plan getting accomplished...

God Will get what he wnats accomplished, its that he can choose to direct cause or use 'decisions" of other beings as means to getting it done!

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

:laugh:

My wife thinks I lost it because I almost fell out my chair laughing. Thank you for that laugh! :laugh::laugh:

 

It may be a small god in your finite understanding, but the God of the bible teaches that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places," and those "rulers" have a measure of control granted to them by our Sovereign God.

God's exhaustive sovereignty allows free (undetermined by God) desires and choices within His permissive will through autonomous individual moral agents. God's perfect foreknowledge of all events enables man's free volition within the boundaries of His overall sovereign plan. The ways of God, His righteous nature, and appeal of God to be reconciled through Christ, is sent to all creatures so that they may respond within the morally accountable boundaries set by our Sovereign Lord. His wrath is clear to all who reject Him and trade the truth in for a lie. They stand without excuse.

I hate to say this because I think it would obvious by now, but THAT depends on what YOU mean by the word "control." Some might call the author in "control" of all that takes place in his book, yet you are careful not to say that God author's sin. I'd love to hear how you differentiate the author of sin from one in "exhaustive sovereign control" of sin.

He is worthy of worship regardless how you or my finite mind seeks to define and explain Him on an internet debate forum.

Question Begging.

Actually, I suspect most people in our culture would mock it mercilessly with much worse that mice fart jokes. And I fear that unbelievers, in their effort to mock, would miss the attribute of God which they need to hear about the most...the attribute that is the greatest of them all:

Love.

Yes, if "this" = love...

 

Skan, you know, there comes a time to hang it up. When I was a young man I would argue with someone till I was blue in the face. I like to believe I am a little wiser now (not much, but a little), and now know that sometimes you have to drop an issue. Not everything is always resolved, you just have to face that fact. You have been carrying on with Luke for what, maybe six months now? He is not going to agree with you, so hang it up.

In fact, if there is any hope that he will ever agree with you, it is when you quit challenging him. Folks put up a wall when you do that.

Just present the truth from scripture and leave it at that. The word of God is sufficient of itself, if God's word does not convince a person of truth, nothing you do in your own power and ability will work either.

Just some advice, take it or leave it.

 

Sometimes its not just about an effort to get someone to change their perspective. Sometimes its about presenting the other perspective so that those reading through these posts can make informed choices.

One more verse to throw in as support for my last post:

1 John 5:19 … "the whole world is under the control of the evil one."

 

The winds do obey Him. :smilewinkgrin:

 

It's easy for one who truly believes that God is infinitely large and powerful to accept the premise that He knows of, keeps track of, and guides each particle of His creation. But those who don't think that God is in control of men and angles would find that ludicrous.

 

Men are controlled by sin, and are taken captive by the devil at his will, but none does one thing that isn't in God's will for the good of His elect, or for evil against the wicked. Job was one of God's elect and recognized God's hand in his tribulations. If he didn't sin, it was God's grace.

 

so lets bottom line this Aaron, you dont believe in Gods Permissive Will?

 

This possibly could be due to the laugh factor and the sad factor (someone who just doesn't get it)

 

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Jeremiah 7
30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.


HankD

 

: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish


No Aaron, what is out of place is your insistence that anyone who holds any differing views, perspectives or positions from your own, whether they relate to theology and/or the manner in which God expresses His sovereignty over His creation merit such adjectives pointedly aimed at others who also count themselves as believers.

What exactly do YOU gain from "beating up" on people who do not acknowledge or agree in all ways with YOUR interpretation of Who God is and How HE operates?

Are you intellectually, spiritually or otherwise "threatened" by those who differ from you?