God: The Micromanager

[webdog]

Speaking as the resident Amyralsist on the BB...

I would have to say that the God of the Bible is NOT the God portarted by Hyper calvinism though!

God fully reamins in control at all times in all situations, in thast he can choose to "step in" at any time BUT

He also has chosen to work through BOTH His deterned ordaining directly Will, and His allowing others to make their decisions, but in the end, ALl things work together according to His divine plans and purposes!

It's nice to see some moderate calvinists recognize Luke's brand is not mainstream. I guess using his logic non-cal's are not the only ones in his estimation to not understand sovereignty...even 4 and 5 point calvinists don't. Not an island I want to be out on...

 

[Luke2427]

It's nice to see some moderate calvinists recognize Luke's brand is not mainstream. I guess using his logic non-cal's are not the only ones in his estimation to not understand sovereignty...even 4 and 5 point calvinists don't. Not an island I want to be out on...

This is further proof that you do not know what mainstream Calvinism is.

I have proven that what I am saying is in accord with the likes of modern Calvinist scholars like Mohler, Ware, Sproul, Piper, etc... And I have proven that it is in line with classical Calvinists like Edwards, Boice, Beza and John Calvin himself.

I had a friend say the other day something that I think is true. He said, "People who really know what Calvinism is are Calvinists because if you knew it you would be one."

That, imo, is true.

You are evidence of its verity.

 

[JesusFan]

This is further proof that you do not know what mainstream Calvinism is.

I have proven that what I am saying is in accord with the likes of modern Calvinist scholars like Mohler, Ware, Sproul, Piper, etc... And I have proven that it is in line with classical Calvinists like Edwards, Boice, Beza and John Calvin himself.

I had a friend say the other day something that I think is true. He said, "People who really know what Calvinism is are Calvinists because if you knew it you would be one."

That, imo, is true.

You are evidence of its verity.

Don't think that it is the "Truth" in calvinism though that all would hold to God being the way that you described"micro managing" His creation!

He ALWAYS appeared to have some type of "free will" built into His plans and purposes...

He KNEW BOTh satan and Adam would sin and fall, but did NOT directly cause either of those decisions, but DID already have determined the :master plan" to have Him redeem out both Creation and man!

Still hold that Cal is better way to view the Theology of Sotierology than arms, but think that instead of quoting all of the time cals authors, would rather be quoting Apostles peter, John, and paul!

 

[Luke2427]

Don't think that it is the "Truth" in calvinism though that all would hold to God being the way that you described"micro managing" His creation!

He ALWAYS appeared to have some type of "free will" built into His plans and purposes...

He KNEW BOTh satan and Adam would sin and fall, but did NOT directly cause either of those decisions, but DID already have determined the :master plan" to have Him redeem out both Creation and man!

Still hold that Cal is better way to view the Theology of Sotierology than arms, but think that instead of quoting all of the time cals authors, would rather be quoting Apostles peter, John, and paul!

Well, it IS Calvinism as I have proven numerous times. It does not matter what you think.

If the electron does not move in accordance with the eternal purposes of God- pray tell- how DOES it move????

Does it move in OPPOSITION to the eternal purposes of God????????????????


If so, that is one POWERFUL little electron which has the might to undermine and overthrow the Eternal Purposes of an Almighty, All-knowing, Eternal, Immutable, Self-existant God!!

Do you not see what madness it is to purport that God is not the micro-manager of the universe?

There cannot BE a real God as the one we espouse and at the same time be ONE SINGLE rogue sub-atomic particle in the universe.

It cannot be.

If there is ONE rogue subatomic particle in the whole universe, then an Almighty, All-knowing, Everywhere present, Immutable, Eternal God CANNOT exist.

 

[JesusFan]

Well, it IS Calvinism as I have proven numerous times. It does not matter what you think.

If the electron does not move in accordance with the eternal purposes of God- pray tell- how DOES it move????

Does it move in OPPOSITION to the eternal purposes of God????????????????


If so, that is one POWERFUL little electron which has the might to undermine and overthrow the Eternal Purposes of an Almighty, All-knowing, Eternal, Immutable, Self-existant God!!

Do you not see what madness it is to purport that God is not the micro-manager of the universe?

There cannot BE a real God as the one we espouse and at the same time be ONE SINGLE rogue sub-atomic particle in the universe.

It cannot be.

If there is ONE rogue subatomic particle in the whole universe, then an Almighty, All-knowing, Everywhere present, Immutable, Eternal God CANNOT exist.

I would postulate bacl to ypu Luke that per the Bible, NOT from Calvinism, that the God of Creation has though "built" into His creation a degree of "self determination" in that per the viewpoint of creatures and of man, they are indeed making personal decisions that affect 'future events: and that God is either directly determining the outcome, or else using their "free decisons" and overriding them to be part of His overal plan getting accomplished...

God Will get what he wnats accomplished, its that he can choose to direct cause or use 'decisions" of other beings as means to getting it done!

 

[freeatlast]

I would postulate bacl to ypu Luke that per the Bible, NOT from Calvinism, that the God of Creation has though "built" into His creation a degree of "self determination" in that per the viewpoint of creatures and of man, they are indeed making personal decisions that affect 'future events: and that God is either directly determining the outcome, or else using their "free decisons" and overriding them to be part of His overal plan getting accomplished...

God Will get what he wnats accomplished, its that he can choose to direct cause or use 'decisions" of other beings as means to getting it done!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Luke2427]

I would postulate bacl to ypu Luke that per the Bible, NOT from Calvinism, that the God of Creation has though "built" into His creation a degree of "self determination" in that per the viewpoint of creatures and of man, they are indeed making personal decisions that affect 'future events: and that God is either directly determining the outcome, or else using their "free decisons" and overriding them to be part of His overal plan getting accomplished...

God Will get what he wnats accomplished, its that he can choose to direct cause or use 'decisions" of other beings as means to getting it done!

The problem with this thinking is that it had God ONLY ruling over the ends, not the means.

Do things happen that God never purposed to happen?

If they do, then happen in opposition to the purposes of God.

That means that God's eternal purposes are thwarted. He may work it all out in the END, but in the mean time MAN is in charge.

That is not the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible tells the electron to orbit the nucleus of the atom and that electron, like all other electrons that have ever existed, does exactly what God tells it to do. Every electron moves at God's bidding and in accordance with God's eternal purposes.

Whatever being does not have control of a single electron is NOT GOD- that being cannot be the maker and sustainer of all things in whom we live and move and have our being- the Almighty, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Sovereign God.

 

[Skandelon]

So let me get this straight, a mouse farting in the night is God's design?

:laugh:

My wife thinks I lost it because I almost fell out my chair laughing. Thank you for that laugh! :laugh::laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

:laugh:

My wife thinks I lost it because I almost fell out my chair laughing. Thank you for that laugh! :laugh::laugh:

It may be irreverent but it is under the micromanagement of God as much as who sits upon a throne and when exactly Jesus is returning.

God is too great to have his purposes thwarted.

It is a small god who does not control every action of every creature from mice to paremecium to blue whales to redwood trees.

God is the sustainer of all things from the mightiest galaxy to the smallest sub, sub, subatomic particle.

This is the God of the Bible. He does not just control all ENDS- he controls all means.

This is the God who is worthy of worship.

The only hope this culture has is abandoning this small view of God for the right one.

That will restore a sense of awe and wonder and fear and reverence in the hearts of the people of our culture for the Mighty God of Heaven.

The lack of this is what cost us our culture.

 

[Skandelon]

It is a small god who does not control every action of every creature from mice to paremecium to blue whales to redwood trees.

It may be a small god in your finite understanding, but the God of the bible teaches that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places," and those "rulers" have a measure of control granted to them by our Sovereign God.

God's exhaustive sovereignty allows free (undetermined by God) desires and choices within His permissive will through autonomous individual moral agents. God's perfect foreknowledge of all events enables man's free volition within the boundaries of His overall sovereign plan. The ways of God, His righteous nature, and appeal of God to be reconciled through Christ, is sent to all creatures so that they may respond within the morally accountable boundaries set by our Sovereign Lord. His wrath is clear to all who reject Him and trade the truth in for a lie. They stand without excuse.

This is the God of the Bible. He does not just control all ENDS- he controls all means.

I hate to say this because I think it would obvious by now, but THAT depends on what YOU mean by the word "control." Some might call the author in "control" of all that takes place in his book, yet you are careful not to say that God author's sin. I'd love to hear how you differentiate the author of sin from one in "exhaustive sovereign control" of sin.

This is the God who is worthy of worship.

He is worthy of worship regardless how you or my finite mind seeks to define and explain Him on an internet debate forum.

The only hope this culture has is abandoning this small view of God for the right one.

Question Begging.

That will restore a sense of awe and wonder and fear and reverence in the hearts of the people of our culture for the Mighty God of Heaven.

Actually, I suspect most people in our culture would mock it mercilessly with much worse that mice fart jokes. And I fear that unbelievers, in their effort to mock, would miss the attribute of God which they need to hear about the most...the attribute that is the greatest of them all:

Love.

The lack of this is what cost us our culture.

Yes, if "this" = love...

 

[Winman]

Skan, you know, there comes a time to hang it up. When I was a young man I would argue with someone till I was blue in the face. I like to believe I am a little wiser now (not much, but a little), and now know that sometimes you have to drop an issue. Not everything is always resolved, you just have to face that fact. You have been carrying on with Luke for what, maybe six months now? He is not going to agree with you, so hang it up.

In fact, if there is any hope that he will ever agree with you, it is when you quit challenging him. Folks put up a wall when you do that.

Just present the truth from scripture and leave it at that. The word of God is sufficient of itself, if God's word does not convince a person of truth, nothing you do in your own power and ability will work either.

Just some advice, take it or leave it.

 

[Skandelon]

Sometimes its not just about an effort to get someone to change their perspective. Sometimes its about presenting the other perspective so that those reading through these posts can make informed choices.

One more verse to throw in as support for my last post:

1 John 5:19 … "the whole world is under the control of the evil one."

 

[Luke2427]

It may be a small god in your finite understanding, but the God of the bible teaches that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places," and those "rulers" have a measure of control granted to them by our Sovereign God.

That others have control of many things is not a matter of dispute.

But that NONE of it is outside of the eternal purposes of God and that NONE of it occurs without God's will and direction at the back of it is the CLEAR teaching of Scripture.

Did Satan control what happened to Job? Yes. He had control of it. AT THE SAME TIME God had absolute control of it as well. And EXACTLY while Satan was bringing Satan's will to pass- God was bringing God's will to pass.

This is compatabalism. And this is what the Bible UNEQUIVOCALLY teaches.

God's exhaustive sovereignty allows free (undetermined by God) desires and choices within His permissive will through autonomous individual moral agents.

This begs the question.

To say one is in complete control over the COMPLETE FREEDOM of another is absurd.

The only sensible explanation is compatabalism.

What you say makes no more logical sense than if you had said, "This is so hot it is cold."

That is what Arminians often say about God's sovereignty. He is SO sovereign that he controls what he has no control over.

If that is possible then the laws of logic are bunk and all conversation is pointless.

God's perfect foreknowledge of all events enables man's free volition within the boundaries of His overall sovereign plan.

Then you have God controlling outcomes but not events leading to those outcomes.

This is not divine sovereignty. You have God NOT being in full control until he intervenes at some future point.

It really is a watered down form of deism.

But since even the tiniest subatomic particles move ONLY according to the eternal purposes and order of God, then NOTHING moves outside his purposes and his ABSOLUTE control.

I hate to say this because I think it would obvious by now, but THAT depends on what YOU mean by the word "control." Some might call the author in "control" of all that takes place in his book, yet you are careful not to say that God author's sin. I'd love to hear how you differentiate the author of sin from one in "exhaustive sovereign control" of sin.

I mean the classic definition of control.

I HAVE explained my theodicy a dozen times to you and you drop out of the conversation every time.

Then a week later you will ask me to do it again as if I have not done it many times before.

He is worthy of worship regardless how you or my finite mind seeks to define and explain Him on an internet debate forum.

Only GOD is worthy of worship as God.

God cannot NOT be God. Being GOD means that he is in ABSOLUTE control of everything at all times.

God cannot FORFEIT control of ANYTHING and still be God.

What you have God doing is forfeiting decisions about eternal destinies and other MASSIVE things to man.

God cannot do this anymore than God can sin or be weak or die.

(Lesser theologians will jump on this and point out that Jesus was God and he died. I expect better of you. We know better. We understand hypostasis and all other doctrines that have to do with this seeming paradox.)

 

[Aaron]

So let me get this straight, a mouse farting in the night is God's design?

The winds do obey Him. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Aaron]

It's easy for one who truly believes that God is infinitely large and powerful to accept the premise that He knows of, keeps track of, and guides each particle of His creation. But those who don't think that God is in control of men and angles would find that ludicrous.

 

[Aaron]

however God cannot force you to sin. Thats Fatalism. Try as they might (God & the Devil) Job would not curse God. If they made him do it, then God would not exist as we know him. He would then be a tyrant.

Men are controlled by sin, and are taken captive by the devil at his will, but none does one thing that isn't in God's will for the good of His elect, or for evil against the wicked. Job was one of God's elect and recognized God's hand in his tribulations. If he didn't sin, it was God's grace.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Men are controlled by sin, and are taken captive by the devil at his will, but none does one thing that isn't in God's will for the good of His elect, or for evil against the wicked. Job was one of God's elect and recognized God's hand in his tribulations. If he didn't sin, it was God's grace.

so lets bottom line this Aaron, you dont believe in Gods Permissive Will?

 

[John Toppass]

I mean the classic definition of control.

I HAVE explained my theodicy a dozen times to you and you drop out of the conversation every time.

Then a week later you will ask me to do it again as if I have not done it many times before.

This possibly could be due to the laugh factor and the sad factor (someone who just doesn't get it)

 

[HankD]

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Jeremiah 7
30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.


HankD

 

[quantumfaith]

It's easy for one who truly believes that God is infinitely large and powerful to accept the premise that He knows of, keeps track of, and guides each particle of His creation. But those who don't think that God is in control of men and angles would find that ludicrous.

: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish


No Aaron, what is out of place is your insistence that anyone who holds any differing views, perspectives or positions from your own, whether they relate to theology and/or the manner in which God expresses His sovereignty over His creation merit such adjectives pointedly aimed at others who also count themselves as believers.

What exactly do YOU gain from "beating up" on people who do not acknowledge or agree in all ways with YOUR interpretation of Who God is and How HE operates?

Are you intellectually, spiritually or otherwise "threatened" by those who differ from you?