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Kenosis and Hypostasis
- Thread starter Goinheix
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Are you asking IF Jesus was born as being both God and man?
It is a common statement: "Jesus was fully God and fully man". That statement or concept is not at all in the Bible. The incarnation of God Son in Jesus is a mistery that have catch christians from the early centuries until today. It is something that make wonder new christians and old theologist. The incarnation is an issue that made possible the origin of many heresies.
Today, we take for godd doctrine the heresy that did survive over all the rest. How we know is an heresy? We dont know; but it is very unprobable that while all others were wrong, our be right. Most probably our position on incarnation had some wrong deitails ot missunderstundings.
I have prepared the harmony of the Gospels, and what I have learn is that Jesus of Nazaret did not have any divine atributes at all. immediatelly, when I say that, christians think I am a Witness. Not, I am not. Jesus was God, but according to Philipians, God the Son did emptied out all of his divine atributes (kenosis) in order to enter the world as man.
That idea is totally ofensive for the most of christians, and insist in declare my position as this and that heresy. Sorry, but it is the Gospels and is Paul.
The replay is the hypostasis. The answer is that God Son became human by hypostasis. And the biblical support is in Hebrew. But the same Bible, the same NT and probably the same author is talking about kenosis. Which one is correct. I shall say that both. But many christians make huge efforts to denay the kenosis and make it means something totally different.
This thread is to disscuss kenosis and hypostasis. Was Jesus fully God? Was Jesus fully man?
per both Apostles John and paul...
jesus was/is Son of God, more accurate to say God the Son, and while on earth emptied Himself of use of His God attributes, and relied upon the HS, but was still God!
IF he livested Himself of godhhod while a man, than his death would not be atoning and effect for anyone other than Himself before God the Father!
The decsision of both Nicaea (AD 325) and Chalcedon (AD 451) affirm the biblical teaching of the incarnation of Christ being the union of two natures in one person.
The doctrine of the incarnation is found in multiple passages of the New Testament plus Jesus' own attestation. One might consult some of the following passages for more support:
Psalm 19:1-14
Matthew 22:29
John 1:1-18
John 5:39-40; 6:45, 68; 8:26, 31-32, 42-47; 14:9
2 Corinthians 8:9
Galatians 4:4-5
Ephesians 4:13
Phiippians 2:6-7
Hebrews 1:1-3; 2:5-18
2 Peter 1:3-11
I can add more in the future but this is a good start. The overwhelming testimony of the Bible is that the incarnation of Jesus Christ is a union of two complete natures, human and divine, within human flesh. This teaching was carried into the apostolic age and transmitted through the early church teachings. It is affirmed historically and sealed with the agreement at Chalcedon.
From a theological standpoint it is the bedrock, foundational claims of orthodox (small-o) Christian belief. Without it we have no Savior and no Salvation.
For a better review please consult Athanasius On the Incarnation.
The doctrine of the incarnation is found in multiple passages of the New Testament plus Jesus' own attestation. One might consult some of the following passages for more support:
Psalm 19:1-14
Matthew 22:29
John 1:1-18
John 5:39-40; 6:45, 68; 8:26, 31-32, 42-47; 14:9
2 Corinthians 8:9
Galatians 4:4-5
Ephesians 4:13
Phiippians 2:6-7
Hebrews 1:1-3; 2:5-18
2 Peter 1:3-11
I can add more in the future but this is a good start. The overwhelming testimony of the Bible is that the incarnation of Jesus Christ is a union of two complete natures, human and divine, within human flesh. This teaching was carried into the apostolic age and transmitted through the early church teachings. It is affirmed historically and sealed with the agreement at Chalcedon.
From a theological standpoint it is the bedrock, foundational claims of orthodox (small-o) Christian belief. Without it we have no Savior and no Salvation.
For a better review please consult Athanasius On the Incarnation.
John 8:58-59 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
They tried to stone Jesus because they knew He was claiming to be God.
Now, if He wasn't God, then He is a liar. Is that what you want to call the Son of God?
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
— C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity)
They tried to stone Jesus because they knew He was claiming to be God.
Now, if He wasn't God, then He is a liar. Is that what you want to call the Son of God?
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
— C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity)
John 10:30 "I and My Father are one.”
I am not saying that Jesus were not God. Here is where all the missunderstanding commences. We know that God is omnipresent. omniscient and all mighty...and many more things. We say that those are His atributes and can not understand of a god not being omnipresent, omnioscient and allmighty. My point is that God is God because he is God; not because He is omnipresent, omniscient and allmighty. For God to be God it is more than having divine atributes. In the same way, God can remain being God despete of emptying Himself of the divine atributes. Because - i repeat - God is not God because of His atributes; and He is God despite of having or not having those atributes.
Paul teached to the Philipians that God the Son did give up on keeping the divine atributes. Paul is saying that God the Son enter the world without the atributes of omniscience, omnipresence and allmighty. But despite God the Son quit being omniscient, and omipresent and allmughty, He never quit being Gog.
Paul and all the Apostles teached that Jesus of Nazaret was no other than God the Son. But no one of them teaches that Jesus of Nazaret was omnipresent, omniscient or allmighty. All the contrary; the evangelists showed a Jesus clearly not being omnipresent, omniscient nor allmighty. And Paul teaches that Jesus - that is God the Son - did enmptyed oiut of all those atributes while continue to be God all the time.
In my opinion, Jesus was God from the very moment of conception in Mary. No, that was not my question.
The decsision of both Nicaea (AD 325) and Chalcedon (AD 451) affirm the biblical teaching of the incarnation of Christ being the union of two natures in one person.
The doctrine of the incarnation is found in multiple passages of the New Testament plus Jesus' own attestation. One might consult some of the following passages for more support:
Psalm 19:1-14
Matthew 22:29
John 1:1-18
John 5:39-40; 6:45, 68; 8:26, 31-32, 42-47; 14:9
2 Corinthians 8:9
Galatians 4:4-5
Ephesians 4:13
Phiippians 2:6-7
Hebrews 1:1-3; 2:5-18
2 Peter 1:3-11
I can add more in the future but this is a good start. The overwhelming testimony of the Bible is that the incarnation of Jesus Christ is a union of two complete natures, human and divine, within human flesh. This teaching was carried into the apostolic age and transmitted through the early church teachings. It is affirmed historically and sealed with the agreement at Chalcedon.
From a theological standpoint it is the bedrock, foundational claims of orthodox (small-o) Christian belief. Without it we have no Savior and no Salvation.
For a better review please consult Athanasius On the Incarnation.
That is what theologist name Hypostasis. The term hypostasis is mentioned in Hebrew (by Paul?) while Paul mention the Kenosis in Philipians. We can not take just the hypostasis and denay the kenosis.
Because he never quit being God.
(Jesus never emptied himself...that was God the Son entering the world as Jesus. Jesus is the result of a God the Sion emty of divine atributes)
If Jesus was not empty off all divine atributes...what is the meaning of kenosis in Philipians?
Jesus only emptied Himself of the visible manifestation of His divine attributes. He was and is fully God...and Fully man.
No need to attempt to reinvent the wheel.
No need to attempt to reinvent the wheel.
I will ask a few questions.
(Did this one In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (A Living Spirit Being) (Eternal Spirit)
(come as, flesh, man, a living soul that could die, that which he had created OR as God to redeem that which he had created? What only would purchase the living souls that had sinned those that had died and those that would die and what would be needed to give them their total redemption?) (Answer the blood through the death of a sinless one and for him to be given life again.) (Could God die? Would God need anyone to need for some or any one to give him life again?)
(Are you born with the Holy Spirit?)
This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. (I believe this shows the virgin birth of Jesus. Through birth her water was broken and so also her hymen.) (Jesus was begotten of the Father by the Holy Spirit and was thus born with the Spirit of God within him where as we are born with the spirit of man that is in him by the spirit of the breath of life from God.) (It is the Son of Man through the birth of the virgin Mary that is declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead. The resurrected former living soul Jesus, of whom the first man Adam was the figure, resurrected the last Adam a quickening Spirit.)
(He emptied himself of glory which contained Spirit Being and life within himself and for which he prayed for the Father to give him again, which he did.)
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(Did this one
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (A Living Spirit Being) (Eternal Spirit)(come as, flesh, man, a living soul that could die, that which he had created OR as God to redeem that which he had created? What only would purchase the living souls that had sinned those that had died and those that would die and what would be needed to give them their total redemption?) (Answer the blood through the death of a sinless one and for him to be given life again.) (Could God die? Would God need anyone to need for some or any one to give him life again?)
(Are you born with the Holy Spirit?)
This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. (I believe this shows the virgin birth of Jesus. Through birth her water was broken and so also her hymen.) (Jesus was begotten of the Father by the Holy Spirit and was thus born with the Spirit of God within him where as we are born with the spirit of man that is in him by the spirit of the breath of life from God.) (It is the Son of Man through the birth of the virgin Mary that is declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead. The resurrected former living soul Jesus, of whom the first man Adam was the figure, resurrected the last Adam a quickening Spirit.)
(He emptied himself of glory which contained Spirit Being and life within himself and for which he prayed for the Father to give him again, which he did.)
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
I am glad that you understand that Jesus is God. My question is...when did I mean that Jesus is not God?
Yes: Jesus is God. No doubts. Nobody is questioning that. But you can not denay Paul in Philipians saying that God the Son did emptird out of all divine atributes...yet He remain being God...only God without divine atributes. Otherwise how do you understand kenosis?
I agree. There is not a need to reinvent the wheel. There is not need to invent a term as "fully God". Was Peter fully apostle? Was Mary fully a woman? Whas Jhon fully prophet? What is the need to reinvent the wheel. Is a whell fully wheel?
Jesus is God, plainly God. Stop saying that he was fully this or that. What it means that Jesus was fully God? What is the diference with being God? Jesus was and is God...period.
Now: where do ypou read that "Jesus did emptied himself of the visible manifestation of his divine atributes"? That is one of the heresies invented (while the wheel was already invented) by short mind theologist.
Jesus divine and human natures are in no way confused or annulled by their union with each other; so there remains only One person in the Son and yet another in the Father, the HS makes three Persons and we have the Trinity. Do you disagree?
1 God the Son come both as flesh/man and God.
2 I will not discuss soterology in this thread
3 I dont know, but if i have to take a side, the answer will be NO.
4 The need or not need of God is not this thread
5 All in this thread are new born christians.
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