Do You regard Doctrine of Gifts Continuing/Ceasing as being "essential?"

[TCGreek]

So 2 christians on opposite side on this issue STILL will fellowship, as we have same Lord and same HD indwelling both of us than?

This is nothing new. Such has been going on for centuries.

 

[Paco]

1.Only Christ could walk on water, and allow Peter to do the same. He displayed his power over the natural laws of gravity.

Paco
Only Christ could walk on water???? Of course Peter walked on water too. Yes, he was with Christ. But the fact is, Peter walked on water. Peter experienced the miracle too.

2. Only Christ could calm the sea. No other person could have power over the elements of nature.

Paco
Only Christ could calm the sea???? Seems to me he rebuked the disciples and asked them where was their faith, implying that they could have done the same thing.


3. Only Christ could multiply a few loaves of bread and a couple fish into enough food to feed 5,000 men (about 20,000 people including women and children).

Paco
I have read accounts of food being multiplied in East Africa. If Christ did it then, He can do it again through His followers.

4. Aside from Christ's own resurrection, his greatest miracle was the resurrection of Lazarus, who had been dead already (four days in the grave). No other person could do that. He demonstrated his power over death and the dead. (This is unlike the ones that were dead for just a few hours in the Book of Acts whom the Apostles brought back to life. It is if they were resuscitated. Lazarus had died, was wrapped in burial clothes, was buried in a tomb, and his body had started to decompose. It had been four days. Martha said to Him, "Lord by this time he stinketh," indicating a state of decomposition. This indeed was a great miracle.

Paco
Didn't Peter and Paul raise people from the dead???? Dead is dead, whether it is a few hours dead or 4 days. And technically, this was not a resurrection. Lasarus did not receive a glorified body. He was raised from the dead to die again.

5. No one could turn water into wine--the creation of another substance.

Paco
Sure they could. Or else Jesus made a false and untrue statement. Is He telling us the truth as He states or is this a fairytale???

These are five of the greatest that he did. There are some others as well.
These ones point to his deity. He did them to demonstrate that he was God.

Paco
Christ did many wonderful miracles. Amen. So when Peter, James, John, and the others did miracles, did the miracles point to their deity???? You and I both know that they did not. The miracles the disciples and the seventy, and others did were performed by the name of Jesus and through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Paco, quote word for word the verse that tells us we will do "the same works" that he will do.
You are not using Scripture properly!!

Paco
Properly???? My goodness! I just take Christ at His Word and believe what He said. That is what believers do. He is the God of Truth! He can be trusted.

John 14:12 NLT
"The truth is, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father."


The KJV uses these words, John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also ..."

When He said "the works that I do," He was of course talking about the same works and not something entirely different.

Perhaps you are aware of the meaning of "verily, verily" ??? .... "I am telling you the absolute truth and nothing but the truth!!!"

 

[freeatlast]

Paco
Properly???? My goodness! I just take Christ at His Word and believe what He said. That is what believers do. He is the God of Truth! He can be trusted.

John 14:12 NLT
"The truth is, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father."


The KJV uses these words, John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also ..."

When He said "the works that I do," He was of course talking about the same works and not something entirely different.

Perhaps you are aware of the meaning of "verily, verily" ??? .... "I am telling you the absolute truth and nothing but the truth!!!"

Paco have you ever done the works you are speaking of?

 

[DHK]

Paco
Properly???? My goodness! I just take Christ at His Word and believe what He said. That is what believers do. He is the God of Truth! He can be trusted.

John 14:12 NLT
"The truth is, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father."


The KJV uses these words, John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also ..."

When He said "the works that I do," He was of course talking about the same works and not something entirely different.

Perhaps you are aware of the meaning of "verily, verily" ??? .... "I am telling you the absolute truth and nothing but the truth!!!"

Now that you have quoted the verse, does the verse say "signs," "miracles," "healings," etc.? Does it say any of those things? Does it promise that we will be able to do anything supernatural? Or any miracle at all?

 

[JesusFan]

Now that you have quoted the verse, does the verse say "signs," "miracles," "healings," etc.? Does it say any of those things? Does it promise that we will be able to do anything supernatural? Or any miracle at all?

Think we ALL here DO agree that the Lord can still do those "supernatural" things even today, BUT that we disagree idf the specific Gifts are still today as there were seen in NT times!

Think that we can still see God doing those things As HE choses, but they would be "exceptons" to the norm!

And think that the greater works was NOT that we would still be able to do same as jesus, he is God!
But that jesus was 'stuck" in a physical body at that time, now hHe is spreading out around the World thru his body on earth, and we will do good works in his name....

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by DHK
1.Only Christ could walk on water, and allow Peter to do the same. He displayed his power over the natural laws of gravity.

Paco
Only Christ could walk on water???? Of course Peter walked on water too. Yes, he was with Christ. But the fact is, Peter walked on water. Peter experienced the miracle too.

Don't be deceptive. It was Jesus that bid Peter come. Besides Peter and Jesus no other people have ever walked on water. This was a miracle demonstrating the power and deity of Christ. It cannot be duplicated today. If it can, will you do it for us.

2. Only Christ could calm the sea. No other person could have power over the elements of nature.

Paco
Only Christ could calm the sea???? Seems to me he rebuked the disciples and asked them where was their faith, implying that they could have done the same thing.

He rebuked his disciples because they were afraid and they thought they would perish in the sea because of the storm. They had no idea that Christ could quell a storm; that He even had such power. They were astonished when he did that.

And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him? (Mark 4:39-41)
--They feared, were astonished.
The WEB translates verse 41 this way:
They were greatly afraid, and said to one another, "Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?" (Mark 4:41)
Jesus rebuked their faith because the sea was troubled and they were afraid they were going to drown.

And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full. And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? (Mark 4:37-38)
--Please take the time to study your Bible.

3. Only Christ could multiply a few loaves of bread and a couple fish into enough food to feed 5,000 men (about 20,000 people including women and children).

Paco
I have read accounts of food being multiplied in East Africa. If Christ did it then, He can do it again through His followers.

There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. (John 6:9-10)
--Please give documentation; not hearsay. Document where this miracle has been duplicated, where any man can take as little as five loaves of bread and two fish and feed as many as 5,000 MEN, or about 20,000 people. Remember that in this miracle the food must have been replenishing itself as they distributed it. If you claim things like this happen then you need to document it or no one will believe you.

4. Aside from Christ's own resurrection, his greatest miracle was the resurrection of Lazarus, who had been dead already (four days in the grave). No other person could do that. He demonstrated his power over death and the dead. (This is unlike the ones that were dead for just a few hours in the Book of Acts whom the Apostles brought back to life. It is if they were resuscitated. Lazarus had died, was wrapped in burial clothes, was buried in a tomb, and his body had started to decompose. It had been four days. Martha said to Him, "Lord by this time he stinketh," indicating a state of decomposition. This indeed was a great miracle.

Paco
Didn't Peter and Paul raise people from the dead???? Dead is dead, whether it is a few hours dead or 4 days. And technically, this was not a resurrection. Lasarus did not receive a glorified body. He was raised from the dead to die again.

You seem to want to deny the Scriptures.
No one has ever raised someone from the dead who has already been dead and buried. Where has that ever happened? And since the Apostles died it has never happened with anyone at all.

5. No one could turn water into wine--the creation of another substance.

Paco
Sure they could. Or else Jesus made a false and untrue statement. Is He telling us the truth as He states or is this a fairytale???

What statement did Jesus make that said you can turn water into wine?
If he did, will you do it and send proof that you did and can?
You are making foolish claims.

These are five of the greatest that he did. There are some others as well.
These ones point to his deity. He did them to demonstrate that he was God.

Paco
Christ did many wonderful miracles. Amen. So when Peter, James, John, and the others did miracles, did the miracles point to their deity???? You and I both know that they did not. The miracles the disciples and the seventy, and others did were performed by the name of Jesus and through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Peter and John never calmed the sea; never raised the dead that had already been buried, never turned water into wine, could not multiply bread and fish to feed over 5,000 men. They could not do the miracles that Jesus could do. Their miracles were more limited in scope. They were given a limited power, and that power was to demonstrate that they were apostles, and as apostles had a message from God. The Jews in particular were to heed that message as from God. If they didn't judgment would come. They didn't listen and in 70 A.D. judgment came upon the nation of Israel.

Those sign gifts do not exist any longer. They passed away completely by the end of the first century. If they exist today give evidence, evidence that can be documented that they exist today.

 

[DHK]

Think we ALL here DO agree that the Lord can still do those "supernatural" things even today, BUT that we disagree idf the specific Gifts are still today as there were seen in NT times!

Think that we can still see God doing those things As HE choses, but they would be "exceptons" to the norm!

And think that the greater works was NOT that we would still be able to do same as jesus, he is God!
But that jesus was 'stuck" in a physical body at that time, now hHe is spreading out around the World thru his body on earth, and we will do good works in his name....

GOD can do as he pleases, when he pleases, how he pleases, according to his word and his nature.
That does not mean we can.

The works that he refers to are the works of seeing souls saved.
He had three years of ministry; it is possible for a person to have 40 to 60 or more years of ministry in which he can do "greater" works or a greater ministry among the souls of men than Christ. It has nothing to do with sign gifts or miracles.

 

[freeatlast]

Think we ALL here DO agree that the Lord can still do those "supernatural" things even today, BUT that we disagree idf the specific Gifts are still today as there were seen in NT times!

Think that we can still see God doing those things As HE choses, but they would be "exceptons" to the norm!

And think that the greater works was NOT that we would still be able to do same as jesus, he is God!
But that jesus was 'stuck" in a physical body at that time, now hHe is spreading out around the World thru his body on earth, and we will do good works in his name....

Noone is doing healings or miricles today. The sign gifts have ended until the two prophets then they will be able to do at least some of them at will.

 

[Paco]

Paco have you ever done the works you are speaking of?

Are we going to start talking about experiences now???? I thought we were discussing the doctrine of Cessationism vs Continualism .....

How 'bout let's keep it a Bible-based discussion and leave the experiences for later ...

 

[Paco]

Now that you have quoted the verse, does the verse say "signs," "miracles," "healings," etc.? Does it say any of those things? Does it promise that we will be able to do anything supernatural? Or any miracle at all?

It doesn't have to.

Anyone who examines the ministry of Christ can see what He did. It really is not difficult for an unbiased mind to see.

What were Jesus' works? According to Mat 4 and Mat 9, they were teaching, preaching, and healing. Of course, casting out demons was including in the healing.

 

[freeatlast]

Are we going to start talking about experiences now???? I thought we were discussing the doctrine of Cessationism vs Continualism .....

How 'bout let's keep it a Bible-based discussion and leave the experiences for later ...

That is fine but it is you keeps going back to the works of Jesus as justification to hold the gifts of the Spirit are for today. So my question is have you ever done any of the miracles that He did or healings He did?

 

[DHK]

It doesn't have to.

Anyone who examines the ministry of Christ can see what He did. It really is not difficult for an unbiased mind to see.

What were Jesus' works? According to Mat 4 and Mat 9, they were teaching, preaching, and healing. Of course, casting out demons was including in the healing.

What works of Jesus have you done?
Did you fill out your profile correctly?
You sound more like a Charismatic than a Baptist.

 

[Paco]

Think we ALL here DO agree that the Lord can still do those "supernatural" things even today, BUT that we disagree idf the specific Gifts are still today as there were seen in NT times!

Think that we can still see God doing those things As HE choses, but they would be "exceptons" to the norm!

And think that the greater works was NOT that we would still be able to do same as jesus, he is God!
But that jesus was 'stuck" in a physical body at that time, now hHe is spreading out around the World thru his body on earth, and we will do good works in his name....

From many of the posts I have read with my short time on this forum, It seems to me that there is a definite anti-miracle bent here.

Your use of the phrase "God doing those things as HE choses" sounds deterministic.

My experience is that most who hold to Reformed Theology deny supernatural gifts and healings for today. There are few exceptions that I am aware of. (John Piper would be one.) They have issues with believing that God will respond to prayer with definite answers. One told me that God doesn't answer prayer like many people thinks He does, that He doesn't change things, He just gives you understanding and "helps."

Jesus said that those who believe in Him would do the works He did. Before we get deep into thinking of the greater works, let's get busy doing the works that we know He did.

Christ did those works by and through the power of the Holy Spirit. He was (and is) the Son of God, yet He did His miracles and healings by the power of the Holy Spirit. He said, "I can of my own self do nothing, " and "The Father that dwells in me does the works." Peter preached that God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and power and that He went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the Devil. In another place He stated that He cast out demons with the Holy Spirit.

He had the Spirit without measure. I think the implication is that we have the Spirit with measure. I believe that the Body of Christ is to do the works of Jesus all over the world, not that every Christian will do every thing He did.

 

[DHK]

He had the Spirit without measure. I think the implication is that we have the Spirit with measure. I believe that the Body of Christ is to do the works of Jesus all over the world, not that every Christian will do every thing He did.

How are you personally accomplishing this?
What works of Jesus are you doing?
Do you have the same measure of the Spirit that Jesus had/has?

 

[freeatlast]

From many of the posts I have read with my short time on this forum, It seems to me that there is a definite anti-miracle bent here.

Your use of the phrase "God doing those things as HE choses" sounds deterministic.

My experience is that most who hold to Reformed Theology deny supernatural gifts and healings for today. There are few exceptions that I am aware of. (John Piper would be one.) They have issues with believing that God will respond to prayer with definite answers. One told me that God doesn't answer prayer like many people thinks He does, that He doesn't change things, He just gives you understanding and "helps."

Jesus said that those who believe in Him would do the works He did. Before we get deep into thinking of the greater works, let's get busy doing the works that we know He did.

Christ did those works by and through the power of the Holy Spirit. He was (and is) the Son of God, yet He did His miracles and healings by the power of the Holy Spirit. He said, "I can of my own self do nothing, " and "The Father that dwells in me does the works." Peter preached that God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and power and that He went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the Devil. In another place He stated that He cast out demons with the Holy Spirit.

He had the Spirit without measure. I think the implication is that we have the Spirit with measure. I believe that the Body of Christ is to do the works of Jesus all over the world, not that every Christian will do every thing He did.

I have not read of anyone here who says that God does not answer prayer or that God never heals or never does miracles today. However even in the times that He does heal, like in the bible, it is VERY VERY rare. In fact it was very rare in the bible if you look at the time frames when it happened. Personally I can only make claim as to one time in my walk with the Lord when I can point to a real healing through prayer. To be honest people who I have prayed for who were on deaths bed, way more have died then been healed as only one I know of was ever healed. Yes some others do survive but not because of a biblical healing.
As to the gifts being bestowed on men today there is not a single person in the world that can be pointed as having any of the sign gifts. Not one. Please correct me if you know of just one.

 

[Paco]

Don't be deceptive. It was Jesus that bid Peter come. Besides Peter and Jesus no other people have ever walked on water. This was a miracle demonstrating the power and deity of Christ. It cannot be duplicated today. If it can, will you do it for us.

Paco
I don't deny that Jesus bid Peter to come to him. There is no attempt at being deceptive. It is wierd that you would say that. My point is simply that a man walked on water. Peter experienced the miracle. It if happened then, it can happen again. No man has the power to walk on water on his own initiative. Whenever anyone walks on water, it will be at the direction of the Lord and not just because someone wants to do it.

And this is a good place to say this: No man possesses any spiritual gift to where he can turn it on or turn it off at his whim. This is a misconception to think that spiritual gifts belong to the person for them to operate whenever they choose to use them. No, they are as the Spirit wills.



He rebuked his disciples because they were afraid and they thought they would perish in the sea because of the storm. They had no idea that Christ could quell a storm; that He even had such power. They were astonished when he did that.

And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him? (Mark 4:39-41)
--They feared, were astonished.
The WEB translates verse 41 this way:
They were greatly afraid, and said to one another, "Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?" (Mark 4:41)
Jesus rebuked their faith because the sea was troubled and they were afraid they were going to drown.

And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full. And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? (Mark 4:37-38)
--Please take the time to study your Bible.
There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. (John 6:9-10)
--Please give documentation; not hearsay. Document where this miracle has been duplicated, where any man can take as little as five loaves of bread and two fish and feed as many as 5,000 MEN, or about 20,000 people. Remember that in this miracle the food must have been replenishing itself as they distributed it. If you claim things like this happen then you need to document it or no one will believe you.

Paco
No. I am discussing doctrines with you. If you desire to read about miracles and manifestations of the Holy Spirit I will recommend a couple of good books that provide documentation.
You seem to want to deny the Scriptures.
No one has ever raised someone from the dead who has already been dead and buried. Where has that ever happened? And since the Apostles died it has never happened with anyone at all.

Paco
Deny the Scriptures? Why would you make such a silly accusation? I have given you Scripture after Scripture regarding these things. No, ... I do not know of anyone being buried or cremated being raised from the dead. Haha. But I do know of an African minister who has been used of God to raise more than one dead person back to life. I have met him and had prayer with him several times.

Actually, you cannot speak with certain knowledge that no one has raised a person from the dead since the apostles.

What statement did Jesus make that said you can turn water into wine?
If he did, will you do it and send proof that you did and can?
You are making foolish claims.

Paco
Me making foolish claims????

No. I simply told you what Jesus said about those who believe in Him, what they would do. It is not me making claims. I haven't been talking about me at all.



Peter and John never calmed the sea; never raised the dead that had already been buried, never turned water into wine, could not multiply bread and fish to feed over 5,000 men. They could not do the miracles that Jesus could do. Their miracles were more limited in scope. They were given a limited power, and that power was to demonstrate that they were apostles, and as apostles had a message from God. The Jews in particular were to heed that message as from God. If they didn't judgment would come. They didn't listen and in 70 A.D. judgment came upon the nation of Israel.

Paco
We do know that Jesus gave them power and authority to heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons. WE are not told everything they did. We are not told every miracle that Christ did either. We only have a brief snapshot of a few of the miracles they performed.

Those sign gifts do not exist any longer. They passed away completely by the end of the first century. If they exist today give evidence, evidence that can be documented that they exist today.

Paco
"Sign gifts"??? That term does not appear in the Bible. That is a term coined by Cessastionists who deny God's power for healings and miracles today.

I think I may have already mentioned to you the passage in Acts 15, how Paul spoke of Christ working through him and how he "fully preached the gospel of Christ," "through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God," to "make the Gentiles obedient by word and deed" (Rom 15:18-19).

Oh, ... and didn't Paul say to follow him even as he followed Christ???? ... that he was an example for believers? He is our example for ministry too!

If you have definite knowledge of the passing of spiritual gifts then perhaps you will be so kind as to provide documentation of when the last miracle occcurred. Please give me the location, the date and the hour. What was the name of the last person who functioned in a spiritual gift?

The evidence that I am givinig you that spiritual gifts are for today is the holy Word of God. The Word states that Christ set spiritual gifts in His Church and there is no record that He has removed them.

God is the God of Truth, ... or is He??? Is His word reliable? Is it worthy of our trust? Or has God changed? Has He changed His mind about spiritual gifts?

My Bible says "For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn" (Rom 11:29).

Another translation says it this way "For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.] (Rom 11:29 AMP).

The Greek word for "gifts" in this verse is "Charisma," the exact same word used in 1 Cor 12 and 24 concerning the miraculous gifts of the Spirit.

God does not break His promises or change His mind concerning His charismas. They are irrevocable.

Goodnight!

 

[Paco]

I have not read of anyone here who says that God does not answer prayer or that God never heals or never does miracles today. However even in the times that He does heal, like in the bible, it is VERY VERY rare. In fact it was very rare in the bible if you look at the time frames when it happened. Personally I can only make claim as to one time in my walk with the Lord when I can point to a real healing through prayer. To be honest people who I have prayed for who were on deaths bed, way more have died then been healed as only one I know of was ever healed. Yes some others do survive but not because of a biblical healing.
As to the gifts being bestowed on men today there is not a single person in the world that can be pointed as having any of the sign gifts. Not one. Please correct me if you know of just one.

No, I spoke about Reformed people in general with my comment about issues with God answering prayer with definite answers and their views against miracles and healings, ... and NOT specifically about those on this forum. I am relatively new here and only have had a short time to read over the posts here. I do believe that the main thrust here though is against healings and miracles.

I would say that the Bible is full of healings and miracles. Healing the sick and casting out demons took up a large part of the ministry of Christ and was a major part of the ministry of Christians and the Church at its beginning. I believe it was God's will and intent that this ministry continue. However, it did wane as worldliness crept into the church and faith diminished.

I know of several who function in spiritual gifts. But in this discussion, we are not talking about experiences but centering our thoughts around "thus saith the Lord."

 

[DHK]

Paco
"Sign gifts"??? That term does not appear in the Bible. That is a term coined by Cessastionists who deny God's power for healings and miracles today.

The word trinity is not used in the Bible either. The term "sign gifts" were those specific spiritual gifts that were used as signs--
1. to authenticate the apostles and their message that they were from God.
2. to give to the Jews a sign of judgment and of revelation.
3. a sign of revelation from God, and not from another source.
4. a sign that the revelation of God was not yet complete.

When a bridge is out, a sign is put in place to give warning of impending danger to motorists and others. When the bridge is repaired the sign is no longer needed. It is taken away, removed.
As the NT was being written, and not yet complete, the sign gifts were in place. When the NT was completed at the end of the first century the signs were no longer needed and taken out of the way. They don't serve any purpose any longer. They have ceased.

BTW, to accuse cessationists of denying the power of God is a false allegation and against the BB rules.

I think I may have already mentioned to you the passage in Acts 15, how Paul spoke of Christ working through him and how he "fully preached the gospel of Christ," "through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God," to "make the Gentiles obedient by word and deed" (Rom 15:18-19).

What did Paul say about those signs and wonders?
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Corinthians 12:12)
--Paul said that the signs and wonders that he did were the signs of an apostle, not meant for everyone.

Oh, ... and didn't Paul say to follow him even as he followed Christ???? ... that he was an example for believers? He is our example for ministry too!

Where did Paul ever say: "Do miracles as I do miracles." he never said any such thing. His emphasis was on service:

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (Romans 12:1)

If you have definite knowledge of the passing of spiritual gifts then perhaps you will be so kind as to provide documentation of when the last miracle occcurred. Please give me the location, the date and the hour. What was the name of the last person who functioned in a spiritual gift?

The sign gifts ended near the end of the first century. The Bible indicates this in 1Cor.13:8-13. History indicates this. And current events indicates this. We have this three-fold proof: The Bible, the past, the present.
If healing were a gift that were operative today, then give evidence.
Where is there any person that can go up and down all the corridors of the hospitals and heal ALL the people in them. That is the gift of healing.

The gift of tongues--Where is the person that can go to any nation and not have to learn the language in order to minister to the people. If the gift were in existence missionaries would not have to learn foreign languages. But that isn't the case. I am a missionary. I know five languages, but it was hard work, not a gift of tongues.

The evidence that I am givinig you that spiritual gifts are for today is the holy Word of God. The Word states that Christ set spiritual gifts in His Church and there is no record that He has removed them.

You have presented no evidence at all. The gifts that you are speaking of have ceased. Where does it say that God put those gifts in the church for today. You have provided no evidence whatsoever. You need to provide Scripture that is not pulled out of a passage here and there with no context provided.

God is the God of Truth, ... or is He??? Is His word reliable? Is it worthy of our trust? Or has God changed? Has He changed His mind about spiritual gifts?

You have done it again. You don't have any context for what you are saying. Let me give you an example. God spoke to Moses out of a burning bush. Has God changed his mind about speaking to people through burning bushes?? This the logic you use. You avoid context and pull Scripture from here and there, simply proof-texting to try and make it fit a man-made philosophy.
I don't think you are Baptist. Are you?

My Bible says "For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn" (Rom 11:29).

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29)
--First, you misquoted the verse. That is deception.
Second, the verse is not talking about spiritual gifts at all.
Third, the context (Rom.9-11) is a discussion of the nation of Israel.
"God does not change his purposes or fail to keep his covenant. What he has promised concerning Israel will be fulfilled." (People's NT Commentary). The verse is speaking about the covenant promises of Israel.

Another translation says it this way "For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.] (Rom 11:29 AMP).

"Those to whom he sends his call" were the nation of Israel. Read the context. It says nothing of the spiritual gifts or sign gifts listed in 1Cor.12:28.

The Greek word for "gifts" in this verse is "Charisma," the exact same word used in 1 Cor 12 and 24 concerning the miraculous gifts of the Spirit.

God does not break His promises or change His mind concerning His charismas. They are irrevocable.

Goodnight!

Satan has gifts too. You don't pay attention to Scripture. You are being deceived by not studying the Word.

 

[Iconoclast]

paco....

I would say that the Bible is full of healings and miracles. Healing the sick and casting out demons took up a large part of the ministry of Christ and was a major part of the ministry of Christians and the Church at its beginning. I believe it was God's will and intent that this ministry continue. However, it did wane as worldliness crept into the church and faith diminished.

I know of several who function in spiritual gifts

It was not a major part of the early church at all....only a few times were the apostles allowed to do signs

I know of several who function in spiritual gifts

Actually ....no.

 

[freeatlast]

No, I spoke about Reformed people in general with my comment about issues with God answering prayer with definite answers and their views against miracles and healings, ... and NOT specifically about those on this forum. I am relatively new here and only have had a short time to read over the posts here. I do believe that the main thrust here though is against healings and miracles.

I would say that the Bible is full of healings and miracles. Healing the sick and casting out demons took up a large part of the ministry of Christ and was a major part of the ministry of Christians and the Church at its beginning. I believe it was God's will and intent that this ministry continue. However, it did wane as worldliness crept into the church and faith diminished.

I know of several who function in spiritual gifts. But in this discussion, we are not talking about experiences but centering our thoughts around "thus saith the Lord."

The time of Christ was a dispensational change just like Moses. There is no recorded miracles or healings prior to the Lord for many years and within 100 years after Him they had also stopped again. The beginning of the church was the same and needed to sign gifts to get it started.
There simply is no one today who has the gift of healing or miracles or even tongues. I do believe the rest of the gifts are sill being used, but not the sign gifts. That is not to say that God could not for a momentary event us some person in these areas to do His desire but after that the person then loses that ability and things are normal again.
If they were those with these gifts their would be people using them but there is no one today who can heal, or do miracles regardless what the RCC says when making saints.
I cannot tell you how many times I have wished that there were those who had those gifts, but there just is not. All the Kathryn Kuhlman’s, Benny Hinn’s or who ever else are frauds and do not have any of those gifts. As I said before there will be a time again when two men have some at least some of them and they will be the two prophets.