Do You regard Doctrine of Gifts Continuing/Ceasing as being "essential?"

[JesusFan]

They don't claim that they can do the miracles Jesus did.
Nor do they so adamantly affirm that they can replicate the sign gifts in the same way the apostles did.

We would agree with ALL baptists regarding major doctrines such as Bible inspired/infallible, Virgin Birth, saved by gracr and faith alone, second coming etc...

Just that we see as 'disputable" IF gifts ceased/continued, timeing of rapture, how you do church leadership etc...

Disputable in the sense that christians can agree to disagree on how they inteprete those areas...

 

[DHK]

We would agree with ALL baptists regarding major doctrines such as Bible inspired/infallible, Virgin Birth, saved by gracr and faith alone, second coming etc...

Just that we see as 'disputable" IF gifts ceased/continued, timeing of rapture, how you do church leadership etc...

Baptists agree on more than just "fundamentals of the faith." Many Presbyterians and Methodists, as well as many other denominations can agree on those also. In fact if you narrow them down you can probably get the RCC to agree with them.

Here is the statement I made:

They don't claim that they can do the miracles Jesus did.
Nor do they so adamantly affirm that they can replicate the sign gifts in the same way the apostles did.

Tell me JF, can you walk on water, raise the dead, turn water into wine, heal the lame and blind, etc. Can you do the miracles that Jesus did. That is what Paco claims. I know of no Baptist that makes that claim. There are off shoots of the Charismatic movement that make that claim but not Baptists.

IMO, the claim is blasphemous. It is blasphemous because those particular miracles were miracles only Jesus could do. He did them to demonstrate his deity. He was showing he was God. The one that says he can replicate those miracles is making a claim to divinity just like Jesus was. That is blasphemy.

 

[JesusFan]

Baptists agree on more than just "fundamentals of the faith." Many Presbyterians and Methodists, as well as many other denominations can agree on those also. In fact if you narrow them down you can probably get the RCC to agree with them.

ALL Evangelical Christians would agree/adhere to the main essential doctrines of the faith, we just disagree on disputeable doctrines like timing of the rapture /Sotierology/eschatology /modes of baptism etc

RCC would NOT agree with us, as they have a false Gospel of works+Grace to earn salvation!

What ARE those distinctive 'Baptist" doctrines that we would have different than other Christians? The Evangelical branches?



Here is the statement I made:

Tell me JF, can you walk on water, raise the dead, turn water into wine, heal the lame and blind, etc. Can you do the miracles that Jesus did. That is what Paco claims. I know of no Baptist that makes that claim. There are off shoots of the Charismatic movement that make that claim but not Baptists

.


We hold that ANY of those things jesus did was due to the fact that he was/is God...

IF there are healings and miracles done today, and we believe some still are, its due to God Sovereignly deciding to intervene in order to bring glory to His name!

NNE heals any one/does miracle etc IF done, its by God and Him alone for His purpose to be done...

IMO, the claim is blasphemous. It is blasphemous because those particular miracles were miracles only Jesus could do. He did them to demonstrate his deity. He was showing he was God. The one that says he can replicate those miracles is making a claim to divinity just like Jesus was. That is blasphemy.

Are you saying than that Apostle peter and paul did NOT have the power from God through them to be able to heal? Not THEM doing it, but God through them as His vessels!

 

[DHK]

Are you saying than that Apostle peter and paul did NOT have the power from God through them to be able to heal? Not THEM doing it, but God through them as His vessels!

I am saying that even if Peter had claimed to:
1. change the water into wine.
2. feed 5,000 with just a few fishes and 5 loaves of bread.
3. calm the raging seas.
4. Walk on water without the help of the Lord being there and without sinking,
5. Raised the dead that had been bound and buried for at least four days.

If Peter claimed he could do these miracles it would have been blasphemous. He would be claiming to God.
For example, changing water into wine is a miracle of creation. It is changing one substance into another with just the spoken word. That is a demonstration of the deity and power of God, not just an ordinary man. Only God can do that. No apostle could ever replicate that miracle. To claim such is to make a claim to deity. Peter didn't do that. But Paco did.

 

[JesusFan]

I am saying that even if Peter had claimed to:
1. change the water into wine.
2. feed 5,000 with just a few fishes and 5 loaves of bread.
3. calm the raging seas.
4. Walk on water without the help of the Lord being there and without sinking,
5. Raised the dead that had been bound and buried for at least four days.

If Peter claimed he could do these miracles it would have been blasphemous. He would be claiming to God.[/QUOTE


Prophets of old had miracles performed thru them by God though, as he also worked through the Apostles to do signs and wonders...

Would you agree with me that those supernatural things were done through them by God, he used them as His 'contact" body to reach out through them to do his work to heal/miracles etc?


]

For example, changing water into wine is a miracle of creation. It is changing one substance into another with just the spoken word. That is a demonstration of the deity and power of God, not just an ordinary man. Only God can do that. No apostle could ever replicate that miracle. To claim such is to make a claim to deity. Peter didn't do that. But Paco did.

I agree with you ONLY God can do ANY supernatural acts, but can't he chose to use us as His agents, have us as ones to pray over people /lay hands on them etc?

WE DO NOT have it to do anything in respomse to prayers/faith etc BUT God alone can do that stuff if He so pleases?

Or do you hold to a totally 'closed" Universe now, "Just " the Bible for today?

 

[DHK]

I am saying that even if Peter had claimed to:
1. change the water into wine.
2. feed 5,000 with just a few fishes and 5 loaves of bread.
3. calm the raging seas.
4. Walk on water without the help of the Lord being there and without sinking,
5. Raised the dead that had been bound and buried for at least four days.




I agree with you ONLY God can do ANY supernatural acts, but can't he chose to use us as His agents, have us as ones to pray over people /lay hands on them etc?

WE DO NOT have it to do anything in respomse to prayers/faith etc BUT God alone can do that stuff if He so pleases?

Or do you hold to a totally 'closed" Universe now, "Just " the Bible for today?

One subject at a time.
Paco claims that he (or his people) can do the miracles that Jesus did.
I contend that is blasphemy and not even the Apostles themselves would make that claim.
To claim to walk on water, calm the seas, change water into wine, etc, is the equivalent of claiming deity; claiming to be God.
Do you agree with that much?

 

[JesusFan]

One subject at a time.
Paco claims that he (or his people) can do the miracles that Jesus did.
I contend that is blasphemy and not even the Apostles themselves would make that claim.
To claim to walk on water, calm the seas, change water into wine, etc, is the equivalent of claiming deity; claiming to be God.
Do you agree with that much?

yes, those miracles over death/weather etc ONLY God can do!


God can still do miracles and healings today, but Its His call as to IF they are done, and its always Him doing them!

 

[freeatlast]

One subject at a time.
Paco claims that he (or his people) can do the miracles that Jesus did.
I contend that is blasphemy and not even the Apostles themselves would make that claim.
To claim to walk on water, calm the seas, change water into wine, etc, is the equivalent of claiming deity; claiming to be God.
Do you agree with that much?

I certainly do not agree. The very fact that there is coming two Prophets who can do miracles does not make them God or the claim that they are God. Men could do miracles at certain points in time through the power of God and will be able to do them again. I do agree that no one today has this power as a gift today. So I think it wrong to accuse someone of claiming to be able to do miracles as blaspheming. The possibilities are, they can, they cannot, they are deceived, or they are outright liars, but unless they claim it is their own power then they are not claiming to be God. Such an accusation is out of line.

 

[freeatlast]

yes, those miracles over death/weather etc ONLY God can do!


God can still do miracles and healings today, but Its His call as to IF they are done, and its always Him doing them!

I disagree. If God gives a man the ability to heal or do miracles scripture always says that the person did the healing or miracle not God. Yes it is done in God's power, but the person is the one doing it and gets the credit. Look at the OT people who healed and see who is credited with the healings or the miracles. This is also true in the NT. The scripture does not say and God healed so and so through so and so. The healer is always given the credit for the healing or miracle even though it is done in the power of God.

 

[JesusFan]

I certainly do not agree. The very fact that there is coming two Prophets who can do miracles does not make them God or the claim that they are God. Men could do miracles at certain points in time through the power of God and will be able to do them again. I do agree that no one today has this power as a gift today. So I think it wrong to accuse someone of claiming to be able to do miracles as blaspheming. The possibilities are, they can, they cannot, they are deceived, or they are outright liars, but unless they claim it is their own power then they are not claiming to be God. Such an accusation is out of line.

To me, BIG difference between saying in the name of jesus, and by HIS power be healed as per Apostle peter in acts

And saying I can heal by my own means and power!

 

[DHK]

I certainly do not agree. The very fact that there is coming two Prophets who can do miracles does not make them God or the claim that they are God.

The mention of two prophets in Revelation chapter 11 is totally beyond the scope of this discussion. That event in God's timeline will be after the rapture, after the antichrist appears, and in the middle of the Tribulation. It has no bearing on this time and period in history. God will give to those two prophets and those two prophets only power to do special miracles. No one else will have that power.

Men could do miracles at certain points in time through the power of God and will be able to do them again.

At what points in history were miracles done (in clusters)?
1. during the time of Moses.
2. during the time of Elijah and Elisha (the prophets)
3. during the time of Christ.
4. during the time of the Apostles.

During these periods of time there was always revelation being given: The Pentateuch, The Prophets, The Gospels, The NT. Revelation of the Bible was being written during the time of men that were able to do miracles in abundance. That is when miracles were done. The occasional miracle was done outside of those four periods, but not often. They were to authenticate the person giving the revelation.

I do agree that no one today has this power as a gift today. So I think it wrong to accuse someone of claiming to be able to do miracles as blaspheming.

Just keep thinking of the one example (out of the many) that I gave you (turning water into wine.)
--This is a miracle of creation. By the Word of His Power he created wine--changed it from water into wine. Who can do that today? No one. It was a demonstration of his deity. It proved that He was the Creator. For one to claim that he is the Creator by claiming to do the same type of miracle is blasphemous. No one can do the same type of miracles that Christ did--and by the same type those are the same type that I mean--the type that attested to His deity. If they claim that they do, it is blasphemy. It is a claim to be God.

The possibilities are, they can, they cannot, they are deceived, or they are outright liars, but unless they claim it is their own power then they are not claiming to be God. Such an accusation is out of line.

Paco and his group claim that they have the power (whether it be from God or not is irrelevant) to do the miracles that Christ did. That is blasphemous. I would hope that you would see that and agree. Only God can do the miracles that attested to Christ's deity.

 

[freeatlast]

The mention of two prophets in Revelation chapter 11 is totally beyond the scope of this discussion. That event in God's timeline will be after the rapture, after the antichrist appears, and in the middle of the Tribulation. It has no bearing on this time and period in history. God will give to those two prophets and those two prophets only power to do special miracles. No one else will have that power.

At what points in history were miracles done (in clusters)?
1. during the time of Moses.
2. during the time of Elijah and Elisha (the prophets)
3. during the time of Christ.
4. during the time of the Apostles.

During these periods of time there was always revelation being given: The Pentateuch, The Prophets, The Gospels, The NT. Revelation of the Bible was being written during the time of men that were able to do miracles in abundance. That is when miracles were done. The occasional miracle was done outside of those four periods, but not often. They were to authenticate the person giving the revelation.

Just keep thinking of the one example (out of the many) that I gave you (turning water into wine.)
--This is a miracle of creation. By the Word of His Power he created wine--changed it from water into wine. Who can do that today? No one. It was a demonstration of his deity. It proved that He was the Creator. For one to claim that he is the Creator by claiming to do the same type of miracle is blasphemous. No one can do the same type of miracles that Christ did--and by the same type those are the same type that I mean--the type that attested to His deity. If they claim that they do, it is blasphemy. It is a claim to be God.

Paco and his group claim that they have the power (whether it be from God or not is irrelevant) to do the miracles that Christ did. That is blasphemous. I would hope that you would see that and agree. Only God can do the miracles that attested to Christ's deity.

While I certainly agree with some of this I also stand on what I wrote. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[JesusFan]

The mention of two prophets in Revelation chapter 11 is totally beyond the scope of this discussion. That event in God's timeline will be after the rapture, after the antichrist appears, and in the middle of the Tribulation. It has no bearing on this time and period in history. God will give to those two prophets and those two prophets only power to do special miracles. No one else will have that power.

At what points in history were miracles done (in clusters)?
1. during the time of Moses.
2. during the time of Elijah and Elisha (the prophets)
3. during the time of Christ.
4. during the time of the Apostles.

During these periods of time there was always revelation being given: The Pentateuch, The Prophets, The Gospels, The NT. Revelation of the Bible was being written during the time of men that were able to do miracles in abundance. That is when miracles were done. The occasional miracle was done outside of those four periods, but not often. They were to authenticate the person giving the revelation.

Just keep thinking of the one example (out of the many) that I gave you (turning water into wine.)
--This is a miracle of creation. By the Word of His Power he created wine--changed it from water into wine. Who can do that today? No one. It was a demonstration of his deity. It proved that He was the Creator. For one to claim that he is the Creator by claiming to do the same type of miracle is blasphemous. No one can do the same type of miracles that Christ did--and by the same type those are the same type that I mean--the type that attested to His deity. If they claim that they do, it is blasphemy. It is a claim to be God.

Paco and his group claim that they have the power (whether it be from God or not is irrelevant) to do the miracles that Christ did. That is blasphemous. I would hope that you would see that and agree. Only God can do the miracles that attested to Christ's deity.

We have elders annoit with oil those who request prayers for healing, and though many stayed in their illnesses, a few were actually healed by the Lord...

IF God still heals today, is that of man or of God?

IF a Church prays for help in say China, and there is a "miraculus" provision of supplies that come their way, is that of man of God?

Just asking here if you and Freeatlast see us living today in a closed off Universe, in that God does not do anything today as He done in Book of Acts?

 

[DHK]

We have elders annoit with oil those who request prayers for healing, and though many stayed in their illnesses, a few were actually healed by the Lord...

I have said many times that God heals today. He heals according to answer to prayer. Does he heal everytime? No. But he definitely does heal, according to his will. John 5:14.
We also have had the pastors gather and anoint with oil according to James 5. Again it is entirely up to God, and his sovereign will. His will is that not all be healed. Paul was not healed. 2Cor.12.

IF God still heals today, is that of man or of God?

God heals--always.
He uses different methods. Sometimes he heals directly by divine intervention.
Sometimes he heals via modern medicine with the help of a doctor.
Sometimes he heals through the modern process of letting nature takes its course.
Sometimes he heals by taking the person home to be with him.

IF a Church prays for help in say China, and there is a "miraculus" provision of supplies that come their way, is that of man of God?

It is an answer to prayer.

Just asking here if you and Freeatlast see us living today in a closed off Universe, in that God does not do anything today as He done in Book of Acts?

Man cannot replicate the miracles the were done specifically to demonstrate the deity of Christ--walking on water, turning water into wine, raising the dead, etc. If he claims he can do that, that is a claim to deity for only Christ could do those things. There were some miracles that only Christ could do. Not even the apostles could do such miracles as Christ did.

Concerning the sign gifts no one has those powers either.
The gift of healing, the gift of tongues, the gift of revelatory knowledge, the gift of miracles. No man can exercise those gifts today. If they can why aren't they being exercised. Where is the evidence? There is none.

 

[freeatlast]

[QUOTE1727544]

We have elders annoit with oil those who request prayers for healing, and though many stayed in their illnesses, a few were actually healed by the Lord...

IF God still heals today, is that of man or of God?

IF a Church prays for help in say China, and there is a "miraculus" provision of supplies that come their way, is that of man of God?

Just asking here if you and Freeatlast see us living today in a closed off Universe, in that God does not do anything today as He done in Book of Acts?

JesusFan,
I certainly believe that God does miraculous healings today, but very rarely. By miraculous healings I mean just like in scripture. Totally healed on the spot with no evidence they were ever sick. By rare I mean that I know personally of only one event that I believe was an instant healing from prayer since I have been a Christian. I also believe that through prayer God will move to allow Doctors using medicines to help in the healing process and on occasions expedites the healing.
Now all this is totally not part of the OP. The OP was about gifts not prayer and in the area of gifts I believe that there is not a single person on planet earth that has the gift of healing as that gift has served its purpose in the early church. However I am open to be proven wrong and if you know of a person who has the gift I know of someone needing healed.

 

[JesusFan]

JesusFan,
I certainly believe that God does miraculous healings today, but very rarely. By miraculous healings I mean just like in scripture. Totally healed on the spot with no evidence they were ever sick. By rare I mean that I know personally of only one event that I believe was an instant healing from prayer since I have been a Christian. I also believe that through prayer God will move to allow Doctors using medicines to help in the healing process and on occasions expedites the healing.
Now all this is totally not part of the OP. The OP was about gifts not prayer and in the area of gifts I believe that there is not a single person on planet earth that has the gift of healing as that gift has served its purpose in the early church. However I am open to be proven wrong and if you know of a person who has the gift I know of someone needing healed.

Actually agree with you and DHK that healings and miracles are rare, NOT the norm, and that its God deciding IF and when He will do them!

 

[JesusFan]

I have said many times that God heals today. He heals according to answer to prayer. Does he heal everytime? No. But he definitely does heal, according to his will. John 5:14.
We also have had the pastors gather and anoint with oil according to James 5. Again it is entirely up to God, and his sovereign will. His will is that not all be healed. Paul was not healed. 2Cor.12.

God heals--always.
He uses different methods. Sometimes he heals directly by divine intervention.
Sometimes he heals via modern medicine with the help of a doctor.
Sometimes he heals through the modern process of letting nature takes its course.
Sometimes he heals by taking the person home to be with him.

It is an answer to prayer.

Man cannot replicate the miracles the were done specifically to demonstrate the deity of Christ--walking on water, turning water into wine, raising the dead, etc. If he claims he can do that, that is a claim to deity for only Christ could do those things. There were some miracles that only Christ could do. Not even the apostles could do such miracles as Christ did.

Concerning the sign gifts no one has those powers either.
The gift of healing, the gift of tongues, the gift of revelatory knowledge, the gift of miracles. No man can exercise those gifts today. If they can why aren't they being exercised. Where is the evidence? There is none.

back to the OP now!

Do you see me as a brother in Christ, despite our differences in the Spiritual Gifts and just how they might operate today?

 

[beameup]

A Baptist pastor's wife (who is a Jew) told me that the gifts are for the Jews.
I tend to agree with her.

The gifts will flourish among the Jewish believers during the Tribulation...
including instant knowledge of foreign languages (to preach the Gospel to the ends of the Earth).

 

[DHK]

back to the OP now!

Do you see me as a brother in Christ, despite our differences in the Spiritual Gifts and just how they might operate today?

Did I ever suggest you were not a brother in Christ?

 

[freeatlast]

A Baptist pastor's wife (who is a Jew) told me that the gifts are for the Jews.
I tend to agree with her.

The gifts will flourish among the Jewish believers during the Tribulation...
including instant knowledge of foreign languages (to preach the Gospel to the ends of the Earth).

Do you have scripture to support this since this seems contradict scripture as the gifts wrere for the church?