Does God Save Children Apart From their Faith In Jesus?

[JesusFan]

Know that children who placed faith in Jesus are saved by Grace of God, what about those kids though who either never heard about Jeus, or else were still under "age of personal accountibility" before God...

So is it JUST children who placed faith in Jesus get saved, or has God chosen to elect to apply grace towards ALL kids under 'age of accountibillity?"

ANY Biblical passge directly addressing this?

 

[webdog]

So is it JUST children who placed faith in Jesus get saved, or has God chosen to elect to apply grace towards ALL kids under 'age of accountibillity?"

If the only manner of those spiritually dead to be saved is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, what does that tell you? You either have salvation for a specific group of humans contrary to Scripture...or you have just found the fatal flaw in Augustine's teaching, and we all die spiritually in like manner as Adam and Eve...by violating God's law (sin).

If God can choose one group of humans apart from what He has outlined in Scripture, why not others? Maybe He will secretly accept Muslims with alzheimers. Atheists who suffer brain damage late in life. When you start adding to what Scripture states, you become Rob Bell and anything goes.

ANY Biblical passge directly addressing this?

Romans 7:9, James 1:15, Ezekiel 18:25, Romans 4:15 and 5:13 to name a few...

 

[JesusFan]

If the only manner of those spiritually dead to be saved is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, what does that tell you? You either have salvation for a specific group of humans contrary to Scripture...or you have just found the fatal flaw in Augustine's teaching, and we all die spiritually in like manner as Adam and Eve...by violating God's law (sin).

If God can choose one group of humans apart from what He has outlined in Scripture, why not others? Maybe He will secretly accept Muslims with alzheimers. Atheists who suffer brain damage late in life. When you start adding to what Scripture states, you become Rob Bell and anything goes.
Romans 7:9, James 1:15, Ezekiel 18:25, Romans 4:15 and 5:13 to name a few...

So in your understanding of God, He is limited and unable to effectually apply the Grace of the Cross towards those hwose sins have not yet been personally imputed onto them, not accountible to God yet?

 

[DHK]

If the only manner of those spiritually dead to be saved is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, what does that tell you?

That that is God's general plan of salvation. Are there exceptions? Perhaps.
The Bible also says: "And as it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment." This is also a general rule of God. Are there exceptions? Elijah, Enoch, And those that will be raptured.

You either have salvation for a specific group of humans contrary to Scripture...or you have just found the fatal flaw in Augustine's teaching,

I study my Bible not Augustine, so this is a moot point.

and we all die spiritually in like manner as Adam and Eve...by violating God's law (sin).

This is not a good illustration. Adam and Eve were created by God as God's children. Death means separation. You believe in eternal security don't you--OSAS. That is the way it was with Adam and Eve. Their sin separated them from God--cut off their fellowship. They didn't lose their salvation. In order to restore that fellowship God sacrificed an animal. Blood was shed to cover the sin. Fellowship was restored.

If God can choose one group of humans apart from what He has outlined in Scripture, why not others?

Did David believe he would meet his infant in paradise?
On what premise did he believe that?

Maybe He will secretly accept Muslims with alzheimers. Atheists who suffer brain damage late in life. When you start adding to what Scripture states, you become Rob Bell and anything goes.
Romans 7:9, James 1:15, Ezekiel 18:25, Romans 4:15 and 5:13 to name a few...

All of the above had their chance to believe and refused to believe in their lifetime that Christ was God, the only way to heaven; that he died for their sins, paid the penalty. They rejected him.

Infants don't have that choice; are unable to believe.
We commit them to the mercy of God.
"Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"

 

[FR7 Baptist]

I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion- if you say that God will save children apart from conscious faith in Christ, you swing the door wide open for inclusivism.

 

[DHK]

I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion- if you say that God will save children apart from conscious faith in Christ, you swing the door wide open for inclusivism.

I don't see that as the case.
You also shut the door to God being a merciful God.
You also shut the door to God's justice.

 

[InTheLight]

So in your understanding of God, He is limited and unable to effectually apply the Grace of the Cross towards those <snip>

Just. Stop. It.

 

[JesusFan]

Just. Stop. It.

Simple question though isn't it?

Either God can choose to do that, or He can not?

 

[Jim1999]

ALL the elect will be saved.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[InTheLight]

Simple question though isn't it?

Either God can choose to do that, or He can not?

You totally blew off whatever WebDog wrote and remarked:

So in your understanding of God, He is limited and unable to effectually apply the Grace of the Cross

 

[JesusFan]

I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion- if you say that God will save children apart from conscious faith in Christ, you swing the door wide open for inclusivism.

No, saying that God will be able to exercise his "free will" and elect to reddem and save cases like children who have not yet been accountible to God for personal sins commited...

Blood of jesus paid for their sinful state, God is able to reconcile them back to Himself in a general sense Electing to forbade their sins until into Age of accountibility!

 

[Jim1999]

There is no such thng as "age of accountability". The scripture says, "ALL have sinned",,,,,,,period.

"As in Adam ALL sinned.........." Clear innit!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[webdog]

So in your understanding of God, He is limited and unable to effectually apply the Grace of the Cross towards those hwose sins have not yet been personally imputed onto them, not accountible to God yet?

Never even implied that, although He will not save someone apart from how He has decreed they will be saved.

Care to discuss what I actually DID say?

 

[webdog]

I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion- if you say that God will save children apart from conscious faith in Christ, you swing the door wide open for inclusivism.

DING...we have a winner! :thumbs:

Rob Bell is sitting somewhere cringing...

 

[Winman]

There is no such thng as "age of accountability". The scripture says, "ALL have sinned",,,,,,,period.

"As in Adam ALL sinned.........." Clear innit!

Cheers,

Jim

But that is not what the scriptures say.

1 Cor 15:21 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is the one and only time in scripture where we see the phrase "in Adam", check and see for yourself. And this verse is speaking of physical death, not spiritual, the theme of this chapter is the resurrection of our physical bodies.

Further, nothing can "die" that was not first alive.

So, this verse is misused by many. There is no scripture that says man sinned in Adam. God says in Eze 18:20 that the son shall not bear the iniquity (sin) of his father. If Adam's sin was imputed to us, God would be contradicting his own word.

That said, when Adam sinned God cursed the ground and death (physical) passed on all creation. Even animals, insects, sealife, and plants which cannot sin physically die.

 

[webdog]

That that is God's general plan of salvation. Are there exceptions? Perhaps.

Perhaps?!? Biblical proof? There is no "general plan" of salvation...there is only God's decreed plan of salvation as is outlined in Scripture.

The Bible also says: "And as it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment." This is also a general rule of God. Are there exceptions? Elijah, Enoch, And those that will be raptured.

So their sinful flesh is in God's presence right now? You are always on here telling us that death is separation (as am I), you do not think they are currently separated from their sinful flesh?

I study my Bible not Augustine, so this is a moot point.

Good...I study the Bible as well. It does not support Augustinianism (what you hold to).

This is not a good illustration. Adam and Eve were created by God as God's children. Death means separation. You believe in eternal security don't you--OSAS. That is the way it was with Adam and Eve. Their sin separated them from God--cut off their fellowship. They didn't lose their salvation. In order to restore that fellowship God sacrificed an animal. Blood was shed to cover the sin. Fellowship was restored.

None of this has anything to do with what I said. Did Adam violate God's law? What happened when he did? We die spiritually as Adam did...by violating God's law (Romans 7:9)

Did David believe he would meet his infant in paradise?

Yes

On what premise did he believe that?

God's justice that he mentioned quite often in the Psalms. He understood his son was not guilty of his sin, or Adam's for that matter. He was under the curse which is why he died physically.

All of the above had their chance to believe and refused to believe in their lifetime that Christ was God, the only way to heaven; that he died for their sins, paid the penalty. They rejected him.

So now salvation is based on a "chance" to believe? Regardless, did they have faith in Christ (which is required for salvation...John 3:18)? Why can an atheist or muslim be held to the standard in Scripture, yet a fetus or infant violates John 3:18 and they receive a free pass?

Infants don't have that choice; are unable to believe.

...then based on you and Augustine's premise they were created "dead" (an oxymoron as death is the ENDING of life), they are all damned.

We commit them to the mercy of God.

Who's we? God is merciful in allowing those under the curse of sin to be with Him, yes, but they are found not guilty in God's eye

"Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"

Of course. Guilty people are punished, those not guilty are not. That is justice.

 

[webdog]

But that is not what the scriptures say.

1 Cor 15:21 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is the one and only time in scripture where we see the phrase "in Adam", check and see for yourself. And this verse is speaking of physical death, not spiritual, the theme of this chapter is the resurrection of our physical bodies.

Further, nothing can "die" that was not first alive.

So, this verse is misused by many. There is no scripture that says man sinned in Adam. God says in Eze 18:20 that the son shall not bear the iniquity (sin) of his father. If Adam's sin was imputed to us, God would be contradicting his own word.

That said, when Adam sinned God cursed the ground and death (physical) passed on all creation. Even animals, insects, sealife, and plants which cannot sin physically die.

Not to mention, the "so as" connects the two "Adam's". If all are in the first Adam by creation "so as" they logically all must be in the second. Nobody believes in universalism here. We share in Adam's condition by "doing what he did" in the garden just like we share in Christ's by "doing what He did" on the cross.

 

[JesusFan]

DING...we have a winner! :thumbs:

Rob Bell is sitting somewhere cringing...

Once again, either God cannot choose to elect to apply the Grace of the Cross towards chiildren/challenged folks, or He just decides to allow ALL of them to perish who have not placed faith in One they cannot receive by faith as of yet?

ironic isn't it that one who believes in DoG sees more being saved by God and His elective Grace than one who does not hold to a Cal view?

 

[FR7 Baptist]

DING...we have a winner! :thumbs:

Rob Bell is sitting somewhere cringing...

Webdog, do you believe God will save infants apart from conscious faith in Christ?

 

[webdog]

Once again, either God cannot choose to elect to apply the Grace of the Cross towards chiildren/challenged folks, or He just decides to allow ALL of them to perish who have not placed faith in One they cannot receive by faith as of yet?

Are you implying that God can choose to save someone regardless of how He has decreed to save them? Can He "choose to elect to apply the Grace of the cross" towards someone who has rejected Him?

ironic isn't it that one who believes in DoG sees more being saved by God and His elective Grace than one who does not hold to a Cal view?

No irony. There is no special unannounced dispensations of salvation supported in Scripture, in fact I view such a position to be unorthodox and anti-biblical.

You asked for Scripture...yet have yet to discuss any that has been presented.