Saving is something needed by someone who is spiritually dead. God welcomes those who are not spiritually dead, those who have been found not guilty. A sin nature does not disqualify one from Heaven. If it did, we all would be unable to allowed in.
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Does God Save Children Apart From their Faith In Jesus?
- Thread starter JesusFan
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Just stop it. You're making too much sense. :tongue3:
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
It seems to me you're rejecting the orthodox view of original sin.
Unfortunately the "orthodox" view is a roman catholic view that has been passed on down to protestants. I realize that today in this culture the majority of people accept this roman catholic teaching...I did too at once...but have come to see there are too many holes and too much speculation based on texts that are not concrete, as opposed to some of the very clear passages in Scripture that I cited earlier.
I don't care if I'm in the minority in the 21st century...I'm in the majority based on the 1st
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
Unfortunately the "orthodox" view is a roman catholic view that has been passed on down to protestants. I realize that today in this culture the majority of people accept this roman catholic teaching...I did too at once...but have come to see there are too many holes and too much speculation based on texts that are not concrete, as opposed to some of the very clear passages in Scripture that I cited earlier.
I don't care if I'm in the minority in the 21st century...I'm in the majority based on the 1st
That's fine and I understand your point, even though I disagree. To answer the question I asked you, I do believe God can and does save infants.
It might be possible that babies have faith.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Now, I don't know how old these children were, but I get the impression they were very young, perhaps less than 6 or 7 years old, but Jesus said they believed in him. Perhaps all children have a form of faith.
But it is clear God does not hold little children who have no knowledge of good and evil accountable until they mature.
In fact, it was the knowledge of good and evil that made Adam and Eve accountable and this is why they spiritually died after they had sinned.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Now, I don't know how old these children were, but I get the impression they were very young, perhaps less than 6 or 7 years old, but Jesus said they believed in him. Perhaps all children have a form of faith.
But it is clear God does not hold little children who have no knowledge of good and evil accountable until they mature.
In fact, it was the knowledge of good and evil that made Adam and Eve accountable and this is why they spiritually died after they had sinned.
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Well, if the "death" in Adam is only physical death, I have about another 800 years to go before that death takes place.
We are saved by "grace", not faith. Scripture does speak of "grace through faith", but that is only explaining the vehicle of God's grace at that time.
Enough circumlocution. Have your own way.
Cheers,
Jim
We are saved by "grace", not faith. Scripture does speak of "grace through faith", but that is only explaining the vehicle of God's grace at that time.
Enough circumlocution. Have your own way.
Cheers,
Jim
Unfortunately the "orthodox" view is a roman catholic view that has been passed on down to protestants. I realize that today in this culture the majority of people accept this roman catholic teaching...I did too at once...but have come to see there are too many holes and too much speculation based on texts that are not concrete, as opposed to some of the very clear passages in Scripture that I cited earlier.
I don't care if I'm in the minority in the 21st century...I'm in the majority based on the 1st
Yes, you hear the argument that the church has held to original sin since Augustine, it is the "orthodox" view.
This is easy to understand, if you dared speak against it you would have been burned at the stake or sawn in half!
The Greek or Eastern Orthodox church disagreed with Augustine and his interpretation of Romans 5:12 from a flawed Latin text. They had the original Greek text and said it did not teach that Adam's sin was passed to us. The Greek Orthodox church has NEVER held to original sin from the earliest centuries and does not today.
Unfortunately the "orthodox" view is a roman catholic view that has been passed on down to protestants. I realize that today in this culture the majority of people accept this roman catholic teaching...I did too at once...but have come to see there are too many holes and too much speculation based on texts that are not concrete, as opposed to some of the very clear passages in Scripture that I cited earlier.
I don't care if I'm in the minority in the 21st century...I'm in the majority based on the 1st
Scripture extremely clear in this regard...
when Adam sinned against God, both physical and spiritual death occurred!
God reckoned ALL of us being "in Adam", so ALL apart from jesus would be born with a sinful nature, and unless God chooses to save them, all would be dead in sins and trespasses!
We are ALL dead to God, at birth, and dead by rejecting jesus...
God CAN cover the sinfulness of infants and challenged persons, by deciding to apply effectually the atoning death of Christ to their behalf!
The decrease in lifespan was caused by major changes to the earth after Noah's flood. Men before the flood lived nearly 1000 years, man's lifespan dropped dramatically after the flood. The change was effected by a change in environment not sinfulness, men before the flood were exceedingly sinful.
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1. Who has said that Adam did not die spiritually?
2. All die physically "in Adam" because of the curse. All die spiritually when they sin as Adam did (with willful intent and full knowledge). But no one is held accountable spiritually for another person's sin! The soul that sinneth shall die.
3. You have NO scripture for this different form of salvation of God "choosing" to save infants, based on nothing more than "He can". I keep waiting for it, but you have yet to produce it.
King david had faith he would see dead infant one day...
Jesus said that children have their guardian Angels appearing before God always...
Were both men mistaken that God saved children?
I suggest you post chapter and verse backing up your assertion. Otherwise don't post anymore.
Do you think David expected to see his infant son who just died in hell?
Did jesus say heaven would be filled with those :like these little children?"
to peter, "do not forbade them to come unto me"
Jesus said that the Guardians angels for little ones always before the Lord
proved by Bible here that little ones will be in heaven so IF unable to get there by faith in jesus , how would God get them there?
<snip>
Do you have a scripture verse to back up your assertion that,
"God CAN cover the sinfulness of infants and challenged persons, by deciding to apply effectually the atoning death of Christ to their behalf!"
IF God has saved little ones, and IF they have not come to faith in Christ, than how else are their sins atoned for than?
or do you see for examples all those Millions aborted babies since 1973 all lost?
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Note this verse carefully:
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29)
The first part of the verse does not say: "The secret things belong unto JF"
Stop asking questions and answer this one:
Do you have a scripture verse to back up your assertion that,
"God CAN cover the sinfulness of infants and challenged persons, by deciding to apply effectually the atoning death of Christ to their behalf!"
Alive in Christ
New Member
Webdog...
Thats true, but His *one* plan of salvation can be accessed in multitudes of ways, situations and circumstances. I couldnt begin to remember every salvation testimony that I have heard in my many years of being a christian.
God is in the buisiness of saving people, and I have found Him to be incredibly creative with His methods. Its not always the normal "Plan of salvation tract" or "please say this prayer" situation.
Thats true, but His *one* plan of salvation can be accessed in multitudes of ways, situations and circumstances. I couldnt begin to remember every salvation testimony that I have heard in my many years of being a christian.
God is in the buisiness of saving people, and I have found Him to be incredibly creative with His methods. Its not always the normal "Plan of salvation tract" or "please say this prayer" situation.
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I agree with this...as long as sinners are saved by grace THROUGH faith (what Jim has esssentially denied on this thread).
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