Does God Save Children Apart From their Faith In Jesus?

[webdog]

Scripture extremely clear in this regard...

It is...I wish more would accept the VERY clear passages as opposed to building a doctrine between the lines.

when Adam sinned against God, both physical and spiritual death occurred!

...for Adam, yes. THIS is the "original sin".

God reckoned ALL of us being "in Adam", so ALL apart from jesus would be born with a sinful nature, and unless God chooses to save them, all would be dead in sins and trespasses!

Nothing here disagrees with my position. The key is "dead in sins and trespasses". Paul doesn't say we are dead in sins and trespasses that Adam used to walk...he CLEARLY states WE are dead in OUR sin and trespasses that WE used to walk in.

We are ALL dead to God, at birth, and dead by rejecting jesus...

Now this is where the error begins, assuming a position not based on the prior information given. One Psalm states at conception, one at birth...which is it?

God CAN cover the sinfulness of infants and challenged persons, by deciding to apply effectually the atoning death of Christ to their behalf!

Then if we can flush sola fide down the toilet with this specific group of people, there is nothing stopping us from doing the same thing with other groups that I gave examples of. Universalism is plausible if you hold to this...

 

[webdog]

You are saying that some are getting into heaven by some means other than the work of Christ. I don't care to quibble over the details of that heresy.

Good, because that is not what I am saying.

Like I said prior, do not ever tell me again what I am saying. Someone who believes Adam and Eve are burning this very moment has no business discussing these kind of issues.

Back to the basics for you. You need a nice tall glass of milk.

 

[DHK]

I just have His Word on it.

You assume you have God's Word on it.
You make a dogmatic statement with no authority whatsoever as if you are the judicial arbitrator. God is the judge of all the earth, not you. Who are you to decide who will go to heaven and who will not. Quite arrogant aren't you?

 

[DHK]

Now this is where the error begins, assuming a position not based on the prior information given. One Psalm states at conception, one at birth...which is it?

In some passages the two words are used interchangeably.

 

[webdog]

In some passages the two words are used interchangeably.

Which ones? I do realize this is poetic language, but for whatever reason is taken literally in this instance. That being the case we need to keep it literal and there is no room for it to be figurative.

 

[freeatlast]

Know that children who placed faith in Jesus are saved by Grace of God, what about those kids though who either never heard about Jeus, or else were still under "age of personal accountibility" before God...

So is it JUST children who placed faith in Jesus get saved, or has God chosen to elect to apply grace towards ALL kids under 'age of accountibillity?"

ANY Biblical passge directly addressing this?

There is no biblical reason to believe that there is salvation apart from faith.

 

[DHK]

There is no biblical reason to believe that there is salvation apart from faith.

But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. (2 Samuel 12:23)

David was sure that he would see his new born infant in eternity, totally apart from faith. That is Biblical reason enough to believe that there "is salvation apart from faith," if you want to put it that way.
David threw himself upon the mercy of God. He believed in God's mercy, that by the mercy of God, God would take the infant to heaven. I don't argue with Scripture; I accept it.

 

[DHK]

Which ones? I do realize this is poetic language, but for whatever reason is taken literally in this instance. That being the case we need to keep it literal and there is no room for it to be figurative.

Ver. 5. Infants are no innocents, being born with original sin, the first sheet wherein they are wrapped is woven of sin, shame, blood, and filth. Eze 16:4, etc. They are said to sin as they were in the loins of Adam, just as Levi is said to pay tithes to Melchizedek, even in the loins of his forefather Abraham Heb 7:9-10; otherwise infants would not die, for death is the wages of sin Ro 6:23; and the reign of death is procured be the reign of sin, which hath reigned over all mankind except Christ. All are sinners, infected with the guilt and filth of sin; the rot (according to the vulgar saying) over runs the whole flock. Hence David reflects upon original sin as the cause of all his actual, saying, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Thus man's malady begind betimes, even in our conception; this subtle serpent sowed his tares very early, so that we are all "born in sin." Joh 9:34. Christopher Ness's "Divine Legacy," 1700.

Quoted by Spurgeon in his commentary on Psalms

 

[freeatlast]

But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. (2 Samuel 12:23)

David was sure that he would see his new born infant in eternity, totally apart from faith. That is Biblical reason enough to believe that there "is salvation apart from faith," if you want to put it that way.
David threw himself upon the mercy of God. He believed in God's mercy, that by the mercy of God, God would take the infant to heaven. I don't argue with Scripture; I accept it.

That is your choice to accept it, but you have to read a lot into the passage and If you remember David also fasted because he believed God might spare the child (show mercy) but He did not. What we know about this passage is that this is what David said and believed, not that this is the truth about what happens.
While it is true that many hold this passage as evidence that children go to heaven, the passage is not a proof text even though some make it as such. There is no scriptural evidence that any person who has not come to faith ends up in heaven especially once one understand why we are lost and what it takes to get saved.
I am not saying they do not go but neither will I say they do go to heaven as that would be adding to scripture.

 

[Aaron]

Good, because that is not what I am saying.

Let's see. Justice does not need to be served in the case of infants. They are just like Adam before the Fall, therefore they're welcomed into heaven as they are. They don't need faith, because they don't need salvation.

So, if that ain't sayin' they are getting to heaven apart from the work of Christ, what is it sayin'?

Use small words please, so you don't lose me.

 

[Aaron]

You assume you have God's Word on it.
You make a dogmatic statement with no authority whatsoever as if you are the judicial arbitrator. God is the judge of all the earth, not you. Who are you to decide who will go to heaven and who will not. Quite arrogant aren't you?

I know what Hebrews 6 says. Those who had spiritual life then lose it can never get it back.

 

[freeatlast]

I know what Hebrews 6 says. Those who had spiritual life then lose it can never get it back.

Hebrews 6 does not say that, but that is another topic.

 

[Aaron]

You need to read it again. And, yes, it's another topic.

 

[percho]

Stop asking questions and answer this one:

Do you have a scripture verse to back up your assertion that,
"God CAN cover the sinfulness of infants and challenged persons, by deciding to apply effectually the atoning death of Christ to their behalf!"

I am going to go with 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

I would say he is the propitiation for the whole created system that came under the curse of sin both animate and inanimate and is the reason why Paul makes the following statement:

For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us; for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -- in hope, that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now. And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; Romans 8:18-23

Lord, teach us to pray
When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Dont tell me Aaron that your going to tell me my infant son is in hell! Go a little further with it then & tell me that I & his mother put him there because we at the time were not practicing professing Christians.

 

[InTheLight]

Dont tell me Aaron that your going to tell me my infant son is in hell!

Ya'll need to put Aaron in the killfile and save yourself the aggravation of reading his rants.

 

[Amy.G]

I know what Hebrews 6 says. Those who had spiritual life then lose it can never get it back.

Apparently that's why you believe Adam wasn't saved.

 

[Amy.G]

Dont tell me Aaron that your going to tell me my infant son is in hell! Go a little further with it then & tell me that I & his mother put him there because we at the time were not practicing professing Christians.

That's Aaron! Don't ya just luv him? :tonofbricks:

 

[convicted1]

Dont tell me Aaron that your going to tell me my infant son is in hell! Go a little further with it then & tell me that I & his mother put him there because we at the time were not practicing professing Christians.

Infants go to heaven because God doesn't impute their sins unto them, because they don't know their left hand from their right. They are born in the curse of Adam(sin in the flesh), but their soul came directly from God. Their soul was alive at that point, and in time, when they sin(die spiritually and are seperated from God), and know they have sinned against Him, God no longers withholds His wrath. At this point, God imputes(accounts) sin unto them, and if they die naturally in this fallen condition, hell is where they will go.

Our natural man is made of the cursed ground(and it will die whether they be saint or sinner), but the spiritual man comes from God. God does not create a dead soul. The soul dies(seperated from God via sin), and then is in need of being restored back to God. But until that time, they are under God's Grace, and under the blood.

 

[Amy.G]

Infants go to heaven because God doesn't impute their sins unto them, because they don't know their left hand from their right. They are born in the curse of Adam(sin in the flesh), but their soul came directly from God. Their soul was alive at that point, and in time, when they sin(die spiritually and are seperated from God), and know they have sinned against Him, God no longers withholds His wrath. At this point, God imputes(accounts) sin unto them, and if they die naturally in this fallen condition, hell is where they will go.

Our natural man is made of the cursed ground(and it will die whether they be saint or sinner), but the spiritual man comes from God. God does not create a dead soul. The soul dies(seperated from God via sin), and then is in need of being restored back to God. But until that time, they are under God's Grace, and under the blood.

To quote quantum, :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: