Does God Save Children Apart From their Faith In Jesus?

[DHK]

Before the law did people go to hell or did everyone go to heaven?

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)

 

[freeatlast]

On Adam and Eve: They were created without sin. They then sinned and humans then needed a savior. God provided the law, which was a temporary means of salvation until the death and resurrection of Christ made it permanent. There would have been no hope of salvation for Adam and Eve, anyone else alive, or anyone else living before the death of Christ if this salvation was not available. There is evidence that Adam and Eve repented and a temporary blood sacrifice made for them until Christ's permanent salvation was put into effect. Why would there have been a blood sacrifice made and a way of salvation for all if what they did was unforgivable? (which it wasn't, the only unforgivable sin is denying Christ and they did not do that)

On salvation of children and those unable to make a conscious decision: There is no reason to believe that God's grace doesn't cover them. Logic says that if one is not able to be held responsible for sin, that person cannot be held responsible for accepting the one thing that covers sin. The story of David's son has already been spoken of in this thread and backs up the concept that children are automatically covered by grace until they reach an age of accountability. Wasn't that age somewhere around 18 for the children of the Israelites? Those under a certain age were automatically allowed to enter the promised land, which was a foreshadowing/allegory about salvation. I'm pretty sure those kiddos weren't all perfect beings who never sinned, yet they were covered under grace due to age. Why? (rhetorical question)

The law NEVER saved. Nor was it given as a temporary thing until Christ paid for our sins. Salvation has and always will be by grace alone through faith alone. The law showed man that he was condemned and still does today. Secondly saying that denying Christ is the way to stay condemned is not correct. Not coming to repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is what leaves the person condemned. There are a many a people who profess Christ (they do not deny Him) and they remain lost because they never come to repentance towards God.

About approaching the things of God by logic instead of the written word. That is how every false cult and religion gets started. There is no such thing as an age of accountability in the bible.

 

[freeatlast]

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)

Exactly! That is my point.

 

[freeatlast]

Those who believed God's promise to Adam and Eve of a redeemer and offered a meat sacrifice as Abel did were saved, those who tried to earn their own salvation as Cain did perished. Cain offered his own works, a sacrifice of fruits and vegtables as he was a farmer.

Men were quite aware of sin before Moses's law. Moses himself fled when he realized Pharaoh knew he killed an Egyptian. Why? He would have been executed.

Joseph's brothers confessed they sinned when they sold Joseph.

Pharaoh knew it was sin when he discovered he had Abraham's wife.

Men had the law written in their hearts, and they also had a conscience before the law. Men were quite aware of sin before the law was given and were accountable.

You are adding to the word. Show it in scripture.

 

[percho]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh.

On the day of a child's birth is it flesh or not? If not just when does it become flesh?

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
And the Word was made flesh. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

By the Holy Spirit God this is truth.

Heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

Jesus The Christ inherits something. Does the word of God speak of one inheriting something that one, already has. What do you think Jesus inherits that we are joint heirs of with him?

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
As he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten (born) thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.


By the way this is relative to Hebrews 6 and the reason it is misunderstood.
Forerunner in verse 20 chapter 6 refers to Christ by being firstfruits of perfection God made him high priest after the order of Melchisedec and that we can become also priest's with him being made as he was. Paul says in verse one lets go unto perfection. And God is the keeper of our souls.

 

[convicted1]

None of that is biblically based. That is total assumption. More then that it shows that you do not understand why man is lost. No sin we do today can cause us to be lost. A side note that is why we cannot lose our salvation. There was only one sin that condemned man and that was eating of the tree and the tree is gone. Before the law was given men were lost without any way to know if they sinned. We are all lost because of who we are related to and we are saved because of who we are related to. We are born lost and we must be born again to be saved.

Okay, where does are soul come from? Is it from the "union" of a sperm and egg? No. The natural body is formed by this process, but God shapes this body as He pleases. This natural body that God forms from the cursed ground, is the union of a sperm and a egg.

Now, does the soul come from God? Yep. Now, if the soul is created in this dead state, God made a dead soul that is fallen in sin from birth, coming directly from Him. So, in this case, God is the author of sin. Are you saying that God is the author of sin, because the soul comes from Him in this dead state?

 

[Gina B]

The law NEVER saved. Nor was it given as a temporary thing until Christ paid for our sins. Salvation has and always will be by grace alone through faith alone. The law showed man that he was condemned and still does today. Secondly saying that denying Christ is the way to stay condemned is not correct. Not coming to repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is what leaves the person condemned. There are a many a people who profess Christ (they do not deny Him) and they remain lost because they never come to repentance towards God.

About approaching the things of God by logic instead of the written word. That is how every false cult and religion gets started. There is no such thing as an age of accountability in the bible.

In a way, yes it did keep those who were believers saved. That's why it was put in place, to be a temporary "fix" to keep believers clean until the final atonement, when human priests were needed as intercessors and sacrifices required for cleansing from sin.

Sounds like your second part of this is simply semantics. We're told in the Bible that unbelief is the unpardonable sin. To say "no it's not, not coming to repentance and faith is" is saying the same thing.

Professing Christ when you really don't believe is still unbelief/denial of Christ. No matter how you word it.

 

[Winman]

You are adding to the word. Show it in scripture.

What? Where have I added to scripture? Everything I wrote is straight from the scriptures. Did Abel give an acceptable sacrifice from his flock? Yes. And why was it acceptable? Because he took a sheep from his flock and poured out it's blood representing Christ. Did Noah give similar sacrifices? (Gen 8:20) Abraham? (Gen 22:13) Jacob? (Gen 31:54) YES.

All these men believed in a promised redeemer, they were saved by faith.

What did Moses demand of Pharaoh? That they be allowed to go into the wilderness and offer burnt sacrifices (Exo 10:25-26). This was before the law.

So tell me what I have written that is unscriptural, be specific.

 

[convicted1]

What? Where have I added to scripture? Everything I wrote is straight from the scriptures. Did Abel give an acceptable sacrifice from his flock? Yes. And why was it acceptable? Because he took a sheep from his flock and poured out it's blood representing Christ. Did Noah give similar sacrifices? (Gen 8:20) Abraham? (Gen 22:13) Jacob? (Gen 31:54) YES.

All these men believed in a promised redeemer, they were saved by faith.

What did Moses demand of Pharaoh? That they be allowed to go into the wilderness and offer burnt sacrifices (Exo 10:25-26). This was before the law.

So tell me what I have written that is unscriptural, be specific.

It's unscriptural because he doesn't agree with it??????

 

[webdog]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh.

On the day of a child's birth is it flesh or not? If not just when does it become flesh?

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
And the Word was made flesh. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

By the Holy Spirit God this is truth.

Heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

Jesus The Christ inherits something. Does the word of God speak of one inheriting something that one, already has. What do you think Jesus inherits that we are joint heirs of with him?

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
As he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten (born) thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.


By the way this is relative to Hebrews 6 and the reason it is misunderstood.
Forerunner in verse 20 chapter 6 refers to Christ by being firstfruits of perfection God made him high priest after the order of Melchisedec and that we can become also priest's with him being made as he was. Paul says in verse one lets go unto perfection. And God is the keeper of our souls.

You have shown why all die physically, not why all die spiritually.

 

[convicted1]

Deut. 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

 

[webdog]

Thanks Willis, more proof that the strawman of "innocense" doesn't stand. There is either guilt or non. We see this with Abimilech taking Abraham's wife believing her to be his sister.while he committed the act of taking the wife of another(Abe even admitted he sinned against God when he found out) amazinly God states He kept Abe from sinning against Him. "Not guilty", not innocent.

 

[Winman]

Deut. 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

We got our bodies from our parents and it shall return to the dust. We got our soul and spirit from God, not our parents. Notice it says our spirit shall RETURN to God.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

How can a sheep go astray unless it was first in the flock? And how can you RETURN to God if you were born separated from him?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now there's a way to suckerpunch a fella. I didn't see that coming at all.

What do you want me to say, guy? That there is a way into the fold other than through the Door? That's what webdog and DHK are saying, and they're telling a lie. I won't do that to you, but you shouldn't automatically assume that means your son was unsaved. We're told that the Lord knoweth them that His. If any man, infant or grown, enters heaven, it is because he was saved by grace through faith. I'm sorry if that doesn't satisfy you. We can't preach anything other than Christ and Him crucified. DHK and webdog are preaching innocence. That's not the Gospel.

Since you publicly waylaid me, let me ask you question before all? Why would it anger you to think that your son was not of the elect? (And don't think that these are issues I haven't wrestled with myself.)

Waylaid huh. Your the one speaking like you know everything. Personally I dont care what you or anyone thinks about this issue. You need to understand that people live lives of severe pain & quiet desperation over issues you speak of so nonchalantly. Issues of this level should be not trodden over lightly by anyone of you & to put this into a tag team event is atrocious.

Yes my son is gone & yes I have already had long arguments with Calvinists over just this issue & I'm not about to go there again. But I will tell you that my son rests in the Lord because He is Merciful. And thats all any parent needs to know. BTW, & make note of this when anyone is comforting a grieving parent.....thats all they need to know & I'm done with this thread.

 

[webdog]

Waylaid huh. Your the one speaking like you know everything. Personally I dont care what you or anyone thinks about this issue. You need to understand that people live lives of severe pain & quiet desperation over issues you speak of so nonchalantly. Issues of this level should be not trodden over lightly by anyone of you & to put this into a tag team event is atrocious.

Yes my son is gone & yes I have already had long arguments with Calvinists over just this issue & I'm not about to go there again. But I will tell you that my son rests in the Lord because He is Merciful. And thats all any parent needs to know. BTW, & make note of this when anyone is comforting a grieving parent.....thats all they need to know & I'm done with this thread.

Amen! :thumbs:

so when are you abandoning Augustinianism?

 

[Aaron]

Waylaid huh. Your the one speaking like you know everything. Personally I dont care what you or anyone thinks about this issue.

Yeah. That's why you came out swinging.

You need to understand that people live lives of severe pain & quiet desperation over issues you speak of so nonchalantly. Issues of this level should be not trodden over lightly by anyone of you & to put this into a tag team event is atrocious.

You're the one who submitted your experience as evidence in a debate forum in an attempt to emotionally charge the topic. You should have known that wouldn't work with me. The Gospel is life and death. The work of Redemption was bloody. The spread of the Gospel was bloody. Christ's disciples were and are stoned, sawn in two, killed with the sword, destitute, afflicted and tormented. All for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Are you going to put your suffering and pain up against theirs? You can rest assured I don't treat this lightly. On the contrary, your new-found friends here are the ones who treat it lightly and even count Christ's blood as needless in the case of some.

Yes my son is gone & yes I have already had long arguments with Calvinists over just this issue & I'm not about to go there again. But I will tell you that my son rests in the Lord because He is Merciful.

And I didn't try to tell you any different. You just assume I did because you assume that infants can't exercise faith, and you're willing to say there's a way other than grace through faith because of the natural affection for your son.

And thats all any parent needs to know. BTW, & make note of this when anyone is comforting a grieving parent.....thats all they need to know

Do you really know that? Would you have reacted so violently if you really were assured of that fact? There are Calvinists who are fully assured that those who die in infancy are elect. I'm not one of them (and obviously neither are you), and I've never said the others were wrong. I don't know if they are or not. But this I know. Anyone who says that there is a way to heaven other than grace through faith is telling a lie.

& I'm done with this thread.

It's just as well. You should have stayed out all together if all you wanted to do was play on emotions.

 

[Aaron]

Perhaps Hebrews 6 doesn't say what you THINK it says.
Perhaps Hebrews 6 was written to Hebrews and not to infants.

Is there any account of Adam's repentance?

 

[percho]

You have shown why all die physically, not why all die spiritually.

Dying thou shall surely die.
The soul that sins it shall die.
The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Christ died for us.
How that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Death is just that Death. The last enemy to be destroyed is Death.

The two words spiritual death cannot be found in the word of God. What you call spiritual death the phrase, dead in trespass and sin, has the exact same meaning as dying thou shall surely die. God did not tell Adam in the day he sinned he would die but he told him that in the day he sinned dying he would die.

Those that shall be saved, will be saved from death.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That is resurrected life. Life from death. The gift of God.

Death is death.

It's called. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels;(That is spiritual beings) and are the children of God,(How, by) being the children of the resurrection.

 

[Benjamin]

How much faith does an innocent infant have to have to receive the gift of grace from a Loving and Merciful God? I think the necessary justifications through faith would be quite simplistic and such a requirement which comes from love of truth easily embraced by an infant.

 

[DHK]

Is there any account of Adam's repentance?

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (Genesis 3:21)
The repentance is implied upon the sacrifice made on their behalf by the Lord God Jehovah Himself. An animal was sacrificed. Blood was shed. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Blood was shed. There was remission of sin.