You saying God cannot choose to apply His Grace in such a fashion in order to save those 'special cases?"
Than ALL infants and children are comdemnbed to hell, as they will not be able to chose jesus!
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Does God Save Children Apart From their Faith In Jesus?
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You saying God cannot choose to apply His Grace in such a fashion in order to save those 'special cases?"
Than ALL infants and children are comdemnbed to hell, as they will not be able to chose jesus!
ALL Human are sinners, guilty before A Holy God, as ALL are "In Adam"
Question here is that Can God effectually apply Grace to save those sinners just not able to come to faith in jesus.. Such as infants and mentally challenged persons...
If He can't do it that way, than indeed ALL of them will stay lost!
No Idea how you got that...but this is not a first
I'm saying infant has a sin nature, and "...when it is full grown, brings death" (James 1:15)
I do not believe we are born with a sin nature, although I believe every person soon develops one. The word "nature" means our behavior as developed by habit, not instinct.
Further, the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus had the same "nature" as us. (Heb 2:16-18)
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Jesus had the same nature as us, if we have a sin nature, then so did Jesus. I refuse to believe this.
I think it is more accurate and scriptural to say we are born with a "temptation nature". We are born flesh with lusts and desires that tempt us to sin. But temptation is not sin as explained in James 1:14-15. Only when a man obeys his fleshly lusts does he sin. Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, but he never obeyed these lusts when it would have caused him to sin. (Heb 4:15)
I do believe once we obey our lusts and sin it can become a controlling habit, so we develop a sin nature. But we are not born that way.
That's exactly what I have BEEN saying in regards to a special dispensation of salvation for one sub-group of humans!
BINGO! THAT is the problem with Augustinianism...you either have to invent some mysterious ways of salvation that negate sola fide...or you have all infants being condemned. There is no middle ground. Sinners are ONLY saved by grace through faith...this is a fact and not opinion. I thought reformers held to all 5 solas?
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I believe we've been over this alreadywinman said:
Not sure why Christ having a sin nature would be reprehensible...He was 100% human in like manner we are, as you agree. Note...He was human as WE are, not that we are human is He was. He was subjected to the curse. The difference with Him compared to us is He is also God, able to be the only human with a sin nature to never sin. Just having a sin nature doesn't make one a sinner, nor spiritually dead. I still have this nature and I'm quite alive spiritually! The sin nature is simply the flesh, humanity subject to pain, death and the curse as a whole.
Well, since God Himself said that ALL are spiritual dead "In Adam" born as sinners, how can they be saved if no faith possible?
You are doing nothing but going in circles without actually addressing my points. Why do you do this on EVERY thread?
Deal with the points being made.
There is NO Scripture stating "all are spiritually dead in Adam and born sinners". This is what Augustine and everyone holding to HIS position says.
Sola Fide via wikipedia...
The doctrine of Sola Fide or Faith Alone asserts that it is on the basis of God's grace through the believer's faith alone that believers are forgiven their transgressions of the Law of God, rather than on the basis of any good works.
Sola fide asserts that, although all people have disobeyed God's commands, God declares those people obedient who place their confidence, their faith, in what God has done through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
Sola fide (by faith alone), also historically known as the justification of faith, is a doctrine that distinguishes Protestant denominations from Catholicism and Eastern Christianity in Christianity
If you are going to be steadfast in your Augustinianism, the only option you are left with with is the fact all infants perish. There is no middle choice involved, and anything about babies being saved by some means other than sola fide is mere science fiction.
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freeatlast
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If we are not born with a sin nature then why does every child have to be taught not to sin even before they ever know sin? No one ever has to teach a child to be a liar as they are all born liars. No child learns to lie. It comes naturally. No child learns to be selfish it comes naturally. No child needs to learn disrespect, it comes naturally. Yes we have a sin nature at birth. Even a month old baby knows how to gets its way by crying even when there is no pain.
Yeah, ya got a verse for this yet? No? Didn't think so.
Do you have a verse showing where God made an extraordinary effort to apply grace to an infant or 'special case' and saved them?
No? Didn't think so.
freeatlast
New Member
Because they haven't committed a sin yet. They don't know what a sin is. What sin against a holy God does a 6 month old baby commit?
You will say yes.
I will then respond, but no church may excommunicate a man for the thoughts of his heart, only what he does and says. And our courts do not judge a man for the things he thinks (not yet anyway), only what he does and says.
And so we see a difference in the justice that is executed in earth, and a justice that is executed in heaven. Even under the law, a man could not be stoned for feeling attracted to a woman other than his wife. But in heaven, he is judged as an adulterer.
In earth, there is an age of accountability. In heaven there is none. One is either good or evil, holy or profane, whole or corrupt.
So I ask again. What is in the heart of an infant? Are you saying there is no sin in the heart of an infant? That an infant has no thought that falls short of the glory of God?
Romans 3:23 (Aaron's Bible):
"For we have all had thoughts that fall short of the glory of God."
No, as that is murder, and we cannot condone a sinful act!
Children are born with a temptation nature. When they see something, they WANT it. We have to teach a child not to take every cookie on the plate and share with his family.
The scriptures say our flesh LUSTS against our spirit. It does not make us sin, but it tempts us to sin. When we get angry, the flesh wants to strike another person, or even kill a person. But we do not have to obey our fleshly desires. When we see something we like, the flesh wants to steal it. But we do not have to obey and steal.
Let me ask you a question, is a person born a drug addict? NO. A person first begins to take drugs, and then becomes addicted. Smoking is the same, no one is born with a cigarette in their mouth. The first time to try to smoke you will cough and choke. But it you continue to smoke you will become addicted and it will be your "nature" to smoke. This applies to many things, we all hunger. Hunger is not wrong, but if we do not control it we can become addicted to eating and become obese. This can create real health problems.
The scriptures say God cannot be tempted with evil.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But Jesus could be tempted. He inherited this "temptation nature" from his mother Mary through her flesh.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Jesus felt temptation. After he fasted for 40 days he was very hungry. He wanted to eat just like we do, and this is why the devil tempted Jesus to turn stones to bread.
Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
The devil knew Jesus felt temptation, that is why he tempted Jesus to turn the stones to bread. He was trying to attack Jesus's weakness. But Jesus did not obey this temptation and did not sin.
This temptation nature was before the fall. Eve was tempted by the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Adam and Eve were made flesh. They had lusts and desires. It is these lusts and desires that Satan attacked. He told Eve she would be like God, this appeals to the pride. The tree looked good to eat, this appeals to the appetite.
The problem is people cannot distinguish between temptation and sin. Eve was tempted by the fruit on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but if she would have resisted and walked away, she would not have sinned. It is when she obeyed these lusts in opposition to God's command that she sinned.
:laugh:
What "thought" can an infant form besides "those are my toes", "I'm hungry", "my stomach hurts", "I know those people, I see them every day", etc.?
Actually I'm waiting for Aaron to tell us. He's so smart I'm sure he can read baby's minds.
Is that a yes?
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