Does God Save Children Apart From their Faith In Jesus?

[webdog]

Dying thou shall surely die.
The soul that sins it shall die.
The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Christ died for us.
How that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Death is just that Death. The last enemy to be destroyed is Death.

The two words spiritual death cannot be found in the word of God. What you call spiritual death the phrase, dead in trespass and sin, has the exact same meaning as dying thou shall surely die. God did not tell Adam in the day he sinned he would die but he told him that in the day he sinned dying he would die.

Those that shall be saved, will be saved from death.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That is resurrected life. Life from death. The gift of God.

Death is death.

It's called. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels;(That is spiritual beings) and are the children of God,(How, by) being the children of the resurrection.

To be honest, I don't know what you are trying to get at. Are you denying spiritual death?

 

[Aaron]

Thanks Willis, more proof that the strawman of "innocense" doesn't stand. There is either guilt or non. We see this with Abimilech taking Abraham's wife believing her to be his sister.while he committed the act of taking the wife of another(Abe even admitted he sinned against God when he found out) amazinly God states He kept Abe from sinning against Him. "Not guilty", not innocent.

In man's courts here in the U.S. But with God, it's either guilt or innocence. Good or evil. There is no overlooking a sin.

So, which is it? Are infants born in sin or not? Spare us the legalese you've picked up watching crime dramas and say something Scriptural.

 

[Aaron]

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (Genesis 3:21)
The repentance is implied upon the sacrifice made on their behalf by the Lord God Jehovah Himself. An animal was sacrificed. Blood was shed. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Blood was shed. There was remission of sin.

Whether or not one see's his repentance in this passage depends on how he views the condition of man, and the nature of the Atonement. I can tell you that no where is Adam put up as an example for believers. No where is it mentioned that he had faith. On the contrary, it is obvious he did not believe God. He believed the Devil, and this after he walked and talked with God. When he is mentioned, it is in the anti-type of Christ.

This is a trivial issue, though, and only symptomatic of your view of the condition of man and the nature of the Atonement.

 

[DHK]

Whether or not one see's his repentance in this passage depends on how he views the condition of man, and the nature of the Atonement. I can tell you that no where is Adam put up as an example for believers. No where is it mentioned that he had faith. On the contrary, it is obvious he did not believe God. He believed the Devil, and this after he walked and talked with God. When he is mentioned, it is in the anti-type of Christ.

This is a trivial issue, though, and only symptomatic of your view of the condition of man and the nature of the Atonement.

1. Eve was tempted by the devil. She was the one that listened.
2. Adam rebelled against God. He had no part in listening to Satan. His was a straight rebellion against God's command; possibly choosing to either suffer with his wife or choosing to obey God by faith despite the unknown consequences of what would happen to Eve.
3. They were God's children. As children of God they still had the ability to talk with God, unlike the unsaved do today. God spoke to them. They responded back, and audibly. One can read about the conversation, that Adam (being dead) had with God. This is an indication that they were God's children, spiritually separated from God (spiritually dead), not eternally dead.
4. Their sin was covered by the sacrificial blood of an animal.

 

[Aaron]

D, an awful lot of assumptions there.

 

[freeatlast]

Okay, where does are soul come from? Is it from the "union" of a sperm and egg? No. The natural body is formed by this process, but God shapes this body as He pleases. This natural body that God forms from the cursed ground, is the union of a sperm and a egg.

Now, does the soul come from God? Yep. Now, if the soul is created in this dead state, God made a dead soul that is fallen in sin from birth, coming directly from Him. So, in this case, God is the author of sin. Are you saying that God is the author of sin, because the soul comes from Him in this dead state?

You have absolutely no biblical support for your assumption. All that belief is made up in your own head not in the word of God.

 

[freeatlast]

In a way, yes it did keep those who were believers saved. That's why it was put in place, to be a temporary "fix" to keep believers clean until the final atonement, when human priests were needed as intercessors and sacrifices required for cleansing from sin.

Sounds like your second part of this is simply semantics. We're told in the Bible that unbelief is the unpardonable sin. To say "no it's not, not coming to repentance and faith is" is saying the same thing.

Professing Christ when you really don't believe is still unbelief/denial of Christ. No matter how you word it.

Again, no the law never saved. Not even as a fix for a time. The law has no power to save. It only condemns. That is why we are not under the law. It cannot condemn us who are saved. The OT saints were saved the same way we are and that is by grace through faith.
The sacrificial system was given as a picture of what was to come but it did not save or keep them saved. Just like today if they were saved they would keep the commandments, but the law does not save.
Lastly no place does the scripture teach that the unpardonable sin is unbelief. Blasphemy against the Spirit is the only sin that is unpardonable. Unbelief is not that sin although unbelief is part of that sin.

 

[freeatlast]

Okay, where does are soul come from? Is it from the "union" of a sperm and egg? No. The natural body is formed by this process, but God shapes this body as He pleases. This natural body that God forms from the cursed ground, is the union of a sperm and a egg.

Now, does the soul come from God? Yep. Now, if the soul is created in this dead state, God made a dead soul that is fallen in sin from birth, coming directly from Him. So, in this case, God is the author of sin. Are you saying that God is the author of sin, because the soul comes from Him in this dead state?

You are assuming again. You have no scripture to back up your belief.

 

[freeatlast]

How much faith does an innocent infant have to have to receive the gift of grace from a Loving and Merciful God? I think the necessary justifications through faith would be quite simplistic and such a requirement which comes from love of truth easily embraced by an infant.

A belief that stems from total emotional values with no scriptural support. If we do that then we need to do the same with those who never hear who are raised from childhood into pagan religions and never hear the truth about the gospel. However we know scripture says there is none righteous no not one. It is extremely dangerous to hold doctrine from emotional values instead of from biblical support

 

[JesusFan]

Waylaid huh. Your the one speaking like you know everything. Personally I dont care what you or anyone thinks about this issue. You need to understand that people live lives of severe pain & quiet desperation over issues you speak of so nonchalantly. Issues of this level should be not trodden over lightly by anyone of you & to put this into a tag team event is atrocious.

There are NO direct verses to support either side, that children are lost/saved by Grace of God BUT

We do know that David expected to see his dead infant Son, Jesus permitted the children to come unto Him, said their Guardian Angels were always before God, that God told Jonah that he would mercy upon children even in pagen city of Ninevah..

Yes my son is gone & yes I have already had long arguments with Calvinists over just this issue & I'm not about to go there again. But I will tell you that my son rests in the Lord because He is Merciful. And thats all any parent needs to know. BTW, & make note of this when anyone is comforting a grieving parent.....thats all they need to know & I'm done with this thread.

Due to the very Nature of the Lord, and His sayings concerning the above referenced points, would say that He will be able to save by His act of grace ALL children under age of accountibilty to Him for their sins!

 

[freeatlast]

Due to the very Nature of the Lord, and His sayings concerning the above referenced points, would say that He will be able to save by His act of grace ALL children under age of accountibilty to Him for their sins!

What age of accountability?

 

[webdog]

In man's courts here in the U.S. But with God, it's either guilt or innocence. Good or evil. There is no overlooking a sin.

Since all of man's justice is derived from God's, I believe it is His justice system we should look at...

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

Yep...pretty clear. Guilty or not guilty.

So, which is it? Are infants born in sin or not?

Of course they are born "in sin". That is the curse. If you would stop redefining things you would understand that.

Spare us the legalese you've picked up watching crime dramas and say something Scriptural.

Is there a short pier "in the heart of America"? Use it.

 

[webdog]

You have absolutely no biblical support for your assumption. All that belief is made up in your own head not in the word of God.

I believe it is quite scriptural to state life comes from God. Surprised any believer would not believe that.

 

[Aaron]

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

You're saying there's no sin in the heart of an infant? An infant has no thoughts?

 

[webdog]

You're saying there's no sin in the heart of an infant? An infant has no thoughts?

No Idea how you got that...but this is not a first
I'm saying infant has a sin nature, and "...when it is full grown, brings death" (James 1:15)

 

[JesusFan]

No Idea how you got that...but this is not a first
I'm saying infant has a sin nature, and "...when it is full grown, brings death" (James 1:15)

Unless God elects though to effectual apply the Grace of the Cross to that infant, he will "die in his sins" and be lost!
I DO believe that the Lord ahs decreed though to cover all infants by Grace, that is what saves any of us, not faith, as that is just means that we access Grace, but Lord knows Infants and mentally challenged cannot acces by that means, so He elected to save them by "excluding" them into His Kingdom!

 

[Aaron]

No Idea how you got that...but this is not a first
I'm saying infant has a sin nature, and "...when it is full grown, brings death" (James 1:15)

Would you agree that as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he, and that it's not the outward things that defile a man, but the issues of the heart?

 

[webdog]

Unless God elects though to effectual apply the Grace of the Cross to that infant, he will "die in his sins" and be lost!
I DO believe that the Lord ahs decreed though to cover all infants by Grace, that is what saves any of us, not faith, as that is just means that we access Grace, but Lord knows Infants and mentally challenged cannot acces by that means, so He elected to save them by "excluding" them into His Kingdom!

Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith cannot be excluded. That is Scripture.

 

[webdog]

Would you agree that as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he, and that it's not the outward things that defile a man, but the issues of the heart?

This thread is dealing with the conscious violation of God's law (sin) as it pertains to infants, not adults.

 

[Aaron]

This thread is dealing with the conscious violation of God's law (sin) as it pertains to infants, not adults.

Okay, in adults then.

Would you agree that as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he? And that the issues of the heart are what defile a man?