Does God Save Children Apart From their Faith In Jesus?

[Aaron]

Dont tell me Aaron that your going to tell me my infant son is in hell! Go a little further with it then & tell me that I & his mother put him there because we at the time were not practicing professing Christians.

Now there's a way to suckerpunch a fella. I didn't see that coming at all.

What do you want me to say, guy? That there is a way into the fold other than through the Door? That's what webdog and DHK are saying, and they're telling a lie. I won't do that to you, but you shouldn't automatically assume that means your son was unsaved. We're told that the Lord knoweth them that His. If any man, infant or grown, enters heaven, it is because he was saved by grace through faith. I'm sorry if that doesn't satisfy you. We can't preach anything other than Christ and Him crucified. DHK and webdog are preaching innocence. That's not the Gospel.

Since you publicly waylaid me, let me ask you question before all? Why would it anger you to think that your son was not of the elect? (And don't think that these are issues I haven't wrestled with myself.)

 

[Winman]

Infants go to heaven because God doesn't impute their sins unto them, because they don't know their left hand from their right. They are born in the curse of Adam(sin in the flesh), but their soul came directly from God. Their soul was alive at that point, and in time, when they sin(die spiritually and are seperated from God), and know they have sinned against Him, God no longers withholds His wrath. At this point, God imputes(accounts) sin unto them, and if they die naturally in this fallen condition, hell is where they will go.

Our natural man is made of the cursed ground(and it will die whether they be saint or sinner), but the spiritual man comes from God. God does not create a dead soul. The soul dies(seperated from God via sin), and then is in need of being restored back to God. But until that time, they are under God's Grace, and under the blood.

Yes, read Deut 1:39, Jon 4:11, Isa 7:16, Rom 7:9. The scriptures show God does not hold babies and little children accountable. I believe all babies and young children who die are saved.

 

[Alcott]

If young children are saved-- or 'safe,' as perhaps it should be said-- is the best way to ensure they wont go to hell to murder them? For if you let them grow up to this presumed "age of accountability," there is a chance they will reject salvation... and for yourself, committing murder would be a sin covered by the blood of Christ. So Yes or No-- is that the only way to know both and you and your child will be part of the heavenly kingdom?

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Paul...



And whats wrong with that?

As I understand it its not heretical at all.

I never said anything was wrong with it.

 

[Amy.G]

Since you publicly waylaid me, let me ask you question before all? Why would it anger you to think that your son was not of the elect? (And don't think that these are issues I haven't wrestled with myself.)

Because sending an infant who has never sinned to hell is unjust. That is not something a just God would do. An infant has committed no sin of his own. For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.

 

[Amy.G]

If young children are saved-- or 'safe,' as perhaps it should be said-- is the best way to ensure they wont go to hell to murder them? For if you let them grow up to this presumed "age of accountability," there is a chance they will reject salvation... and for yourself, committing murder would be a sin covered by the blood of Christ. So Yes or No-- is that the only way to know both and you and your child will be part of the heavenly kingdom?

I get tired of this silly question.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Are you going to tell me that a spirit indwelt believer would willfully commit murder to save little babies from hell? Only an unbeliever or a totally insane person would do such a thing. I believe they call your post a red herring.

 

[JesusFan]

Because sending an infant who has never sinned to hell is unjust. That is not something a just God would do. An infant has committed no sin of his own. For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.

ALL are dead in Adam and the fall, ALL are born as sinners, ALL commit sin due to their sinful state...

Faith is NOT what saves ANYONE, its the Grace of God in Cross of Christ...

IF God deciding to elect/choose to apply that Grace apart form faith to those like infants/challenged etc

Are you saying that he cannot do that?

God saves children, as per belief of both David And Jesus...

IF they are saved , and do not have capability to have faith, HOW are they saved apart from God applying effectually Grace to their behalf?

 

[freeatlast]

Infants go to heaven because God doesn't impute their sins unto them, because they don't know their left hand from their right. They are born in the curse of Adam(sin in the flesh), but their soul came directly from God. Their soul was alive at that point, and in time, when they sin(die spiritually and are seperated from God), and know they have sinned against Him, God no longers withholds His wrath. At this point, God imputes(accounts) sin unto them, and if they die naturally in this fallen condition, hell is where they will go.

Our natural man is made of the cursed ground(and it will die whether they be saint or sinner), but the spiritual man comes from God. God does not create a dead soul. The soul dies(seperated from God via sin), and then is in need of being restored back to God. But until that time, they are under God's Grace, and under the blood.

None of that is biblically based. That is total assumption. More then that it shows that you do not understand why man is lost. No sin we do today can cause us to be lost. A side note that is why we cannot lose our salvation. There was only one sin that condemned man and that was eating of the tree and the tree is gone. Before the law was given men were lost without any way to know if they sinned. We are all lost because of who we are related to and we are saved because of who we are related to. We are born lost and we must be born again to be saved.

 

[Winman]

None of that is biblically based. That is total assumption.

There is much scripture to support Willis.

Read Romans 7:9, Paul said he was ALIVE ONCE without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died.

Paul knew correct doctrine, if a man is born dead in sin it would be impossible for Paul to say he was ALIVE ONCE.

Read the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15. When the boy repented and came home, Jesus twice said he was ALIVE AGAIN. How can a person be alive "again" if he was born dead?

In Jonah 4:11 God said he SHOULD spare Ninevah. Why? Because there were sixscore thousand persons who could not discern between their right hand and their left. God was speaking of innocent children.

In Deut 1:39 God allowed the children to enter the promised land because they did not know between good and evil when their parents sinned in the wilderness.

So, there is much scripture that shows sin is not imputed to children until they mature and understand between good and evil.

 

[DHK]

I know what Hebrews 6 says. Those who had spiritual life then lose it can never get it back.

Perhaps Hebrews 6 doesn't say what you THINK it says.
Perhaps Hebrews 6 was written to Hebrews and not to infants.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hard Question

This is one of the hardest question and trial in our life. God knows how to comfort us, because He knows our heart, men don't. The worst thing to do in your life is to reject the only hope for infant and yourself because of a trial that helps us and in the end of the race we know we who persevere will have our tears wiped away. To trust and obey.

 

[Amy.G]

We are born lost and we must be born again to be saved.

But how can a lost infant be born again? Is there another way of salvation other than faith in the shed blood of Christ?

I do not believe God puts dead souls into an infants body.

 

[freeatlast]

There is much scripture to support Willis.

Read Romans 7:9, Paul said he was ALIVE ONCE without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died.

Paul knew correct doctrine, if a man is born dead in sin it would be impossible for Paul to say he was ALIVE ONCE.

Read the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15. When the boy repented and came home, Jesus twice said he was ALIVE AGAIN. How can a person be alive "again" if he was born dead?

In Jonah 4:11 God said he SHOULD spare Ninevah. Why? Because there were sixscore persons who could not discern between their right hand and their left. God was speaking of innocent children.

In Deut 1:39 God allowed the children to enter the promised land because they did not know between good and evil when their parents sinned in the wilderness.

So, there is much scripture that shows sin is not imputed to children until they mature and understand between good and evil.

Paul is not suggesting that he was at some time not lost. He is trying to show the relationship of the law to man and what the law does. It can only kill. It can never save.

The prodigal is not about a person. it is about a nation. They were once alive, they are now dead, but they will live again.

In Jonah it is speaking about every person in the city, not just children. I assure you there was not 120,000 babies in the city.

Deut 1:39 if you believe that the passage is saying that everyone how went into the promise land is a picture of going to heaven without coming to faith then to be honest with the scriptures then you have to hold that everyone who died in the wilderness went to hell.
That passage is not about children going to heaven.

 

[webdog]

Quoted by Spurgeon in his commentary on Psalms

He starts off with a false presupposition by begging the question, so everything else is flawed.

 

[freeatlast]

But how can a lost infant be born again? Is there another way of salvation other than faith in the shed blood of Christ?

I do not believe God puts dead souls into an infants body.

Amy first let me say again I am not saying that babies do not go to heaven if they die. I am saying that there is no biblical support for the teaching. Yes there are several passages that people twist to give themselves some peace in the matter, but if we are honest with scripture there is no scripture that deals with this issue.

All we have is a teaching that, there is none righteous no NOT ONE, and we need to come to faith to be saved. That much we know for sure. If babies who die go to heaven then there has to be some way for that to happen that we have not been told about.

As for me I hold that because of the mercies of God He may have provided a way, but I never teach it as an absolute since i would have to twist scripture to do so.

 

[Winman]

Paul is not suggesting that he was at some time not lost. He is trying to show the relationship of the law to man and what the law does. It can only kill. It can never save.

The prodigal is not about a person. it is about a nation. They were once alive, they are now dead, but they will live again.

In Jonah it is speaking about every person in the city, not just children. I assure you there was not 120,000 babies in the city.

Deut 1:39 if you believe that the passage is saying that everyone how went into the promise land is a picture of going to heaven without coming to faith then to be honest with the scriptures then you have to hold that everyone who died in the wilderness went to hell.
That passage is not about children going to heaven.

Paul directly said he was alive once without the law. He was showing that the law brings knowledge of sin.

What did God tell Adam and Eve would happen if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

What happened when they ate of this tree, what did they acquire? Why, they obtained KNOWLEDGE. They now understood good from evil. This made them accountable for their sin that they died.

Even unsaved men understand this, we do not criminally prosecute little children when they do wrong because they do not fully understand what they are doing. If a 3 year old boy picks up his father's pistol and shoots his sister because he is imitating what he saw on TV, we do not arrest the boy or send him to jail, as he does not truly understand what he is doing.

All law understands a person must have knowledge to be responsible.

 

[freeatlast]

Paul directly said he was alive once without the law. He was showing that the law brings knowledge of sin.

What did God tell Adam and Eve would happen if they ate of the treeof knowledge of good and evil?

What happened when they ate of this tree, what did they acquire? Why, they obtained KNOWLEDGE. They now understood good from evil. This made them accountable for their sin that they died.

Even unsaved men understand this, we do not criminally prosecute little children when they do wrong because they do not fully understand what they are doing. If a 3 year old boy picks up his father's pistol and shoots his sister because he is imitating what he saw on TV, we do not arrest the boy or send him to jail, as he does not truly understand what he is doing.

All law understands a person must have knowledge to be responsible.

Before the law did people go to hell or did everyone go to heaven?

 

[Gina B]

On Adam and Eve: They were created without sin. They then sinned and humans then needed a savior. God provided the law, which was a temporary means of salvation until the death and resurrection of Christ made it permanent. There would have been no hope of salvation for Adam and Eve, anyone else alive, or anyone else living before the death of Christ if this salvation was not available. There is evidence that Adam and Eve repented and a temporary blood sacrifice made for them until Christ's permanent salvation was put into effect. Why would there have been a blood sacrifice made and a way of salvation for all if what they did was unforgivable? (which it wasn't, the only unforgivable sin is denying Christ and they did not do that)

On salvation of children and those unable to make a conscious decision: There is no reason to believe that God's grace doesn't cover them. Logic says that if one is not able to be held responsible for sin, that person cannot be held responsible for accepting the one thing that covers sin. The story of David's son has already been spoken of in this thread and backs up the concept that children are automatically covered by grace until they reach an age of accountability. Wasn't that age somewhere around 18 for the children of the Israelites? Those under a certain age were automatically allowed to enter the promised land, which was a foreshadowing/allegory about salvation. I'm pretty sure those kiddos weren't all perfect beings who never sinned, yet they were covered under grace due to age. Why? (rhetorical question)

 

[webdog]

Before the law did people go to hell or did everyone go to heaven?

Paul dealt with this in Romans 1

 

[Winman]

Before the law did people go to hell or did everyone go to heaven?

Those who believed God's promise to Adam and Eve of a redeemer and offered a meat sacrifice as Abel did were saved, those who tried to earn their own salvation as Cain did perished. Cain offered his own works, a sacrifice of fruits and vegtables as he was a farmer.

Men were quite aware of sin before Moses's law. Moses himself fled when he realized Pharaoh knew he killed an Egyptian. Why? He would have been executed.

Joseph's brothers confessed they sinned when they sold Joseph.

Pharaoh knew it was sin when he discovered he had Abraham's wife.

Men had the law written in their hearts, and they also had a conscience before the law. Men were quite aware of sin before the law was given and were accountable.