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Questions Preterist MUST deal with to Fit the 70 A.D. Theory

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, Oct 3, 2011.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Let's say the generation of Christ and the Apostles were refered to just to appease the Preterist. They still have problems with their interpretation of it. First they need to answer when this occured:
    Mt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    I believe this never occured in 70 A.D. the gospel didn't reach the whole world, as we know America was not discovered until 1492, so the American Indians definitely hadn't heard the gospel of the kingdom before that time.
    So there must be someone from Jesus generation still around.

    Second they need to identify when this occured:
    Mt. 24: 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    Since Christ spoke that it must occur we know it didn't occur in the time of Daniel and must therefore have occured between 33 and 70 A.D. yet nothing in history says it did, again someone from Christ generation must still be alive today in order for that generation to see it fulfilled.

    Third they will need to show when this occured:
    Mt. 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    We have seen many periods of tribulation on the earth World War 2 comes to mind and the slaughter of so many Jews. But Christ said there shall be great tribulation not seen since the beginning of the world. till that time and neither shall there be a greater one, yet we still see things occuring like the 911 attacks so someone from that generation must still be living.

    Fourthly the need to answer when this occured:
    Mt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    When did the tribulation of those days occur and the sun darkened and the moon not giving her light? When did they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven? When did the tribes of the earth mourn at His coming not just the tribes of Israel but scripture says "the tribes of the earth mourn" again I believe the American Indians are part of the tirbes of the earth and thye definitely never mourned Christ return nor do they speak of thier people seeing Christ come in the clouds? Since this has not yet occured then somoeone from that generation must still be alive.

    So that leaves this to be answered:
    Mt. 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    That generation had to SEE all these things to know the end was near even at the door. So the generation of Christ has someone still alive today or Christ meant it metaphorically in John, Paul and Peter seeing them come in visions, but still yet to be fulfilled in a future time.

    They need to define which definition of quickly fits the theory for the word quickly.
    Websters says:
    1. not dead : living, alive

    To me this wouldn't apply to the verse.

    2: acting or capable of acting with speed: as a (1) : fast in understanding, thinking, or learning : mentally agile <a quick wit> <quick thinking> (2) : reacting to stimuli with speed and keen sensitivity (3) : aroused immediately and intensely <quick tempers> b (1) : fast in development or occurrence <a quick succession of events> (2) : done or taking place with rapidity <gave them a quick look> c : marked by speed, readiness, or promptness of physical movement <walked with quick steps> d : inclined to hastiness (as in action or response) <quick to criticize> e : capable of being easily and speedily prepared <a quick and tasty dinner>

    To me this would cover a lot. Let's see acting or capable of acting with speed. Now what was it Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    That would be what this part of quickly means, because the twinkling of an eye is a very fast action.

    The number two sub points need to be looked at also. Let's see 3. Quick tempers nope doesn't fit. Then b. 1 fast in development the coming in the twinkling of eye is a quick it develops in less than a second that fits Christ return. A quick succession of events yep that ould fit the coming in the twinkling of an eye. then b/2 done with rapidity that would fit the twinklng of an eye. Everything in this sectio would fit perfectly with 1 Corinthians 15:52 as Christ return for His church as being a quik occurance in the twinkling of an eye.
    Bottom line is when Christ says He will come quickly it means He will move rapidly when He does come.

    3a archaic : not stagnant : running, flowing b : moving, shifting <quick mud>
    4archaic : fiery, glowing
    5obsolete a : pungent b : caustic
    6archaic : pregnant
    7: having a sharp angle <a quick turn in the road>

    These don't fit yours either. Looks like you come up wanting yet again. Everything points to the Lord tarrying as the Bridegroom of His church the bride.

    I see they believe the coming of the Holy Spirt to indwell all who believe on Christ while a new event and New covenant way of dealing with men did not end the age. Yet the Holy Spirit had never come and indwelt every believer in past times only after Christ ascended and on the day of Pentacost to fulfill that feast.
    Until they get that explained they won't have the ages correct and their eschatology will not be correct.
    Christ fulfilled 3 of the feast in His efficacious work on the cross and the Holy Spirit fulfilled the feast of Pentacost. There are 3 yet to be fulfilled and there was a space of time between the last 3 and the pentacost. Again more scripture that shows Christ will tarry because until the last 3 feast are fulfilled just as the first 4 were then Christ has yet to return. The ingathering has to take place, teh feast of trumpets or ingathering, teh feast of atonement, the feast of tabernacles of booths. All must be fulfilled literally just as the first four were literally fulfilled. Again their belief comes up wanting based on scripture.
     
    #1 revmwc, Oct 3, 2011
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    wrong spot
     
    #2 revmwc, Oct 7, 2011
  3. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Albert Barnes Commentary

    Verse 14. And this gospel--shall be preached in all the world. The evidence that this was done is to be chiefly derived from the New Testament, and there it is clear. Thus Paul declares that it was preached to every creature under heaven, Colossians 1:6,23 that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout rite whole world, Romans 1:8 that he preached in Arabia, Galatians 1:17 and at Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, Romans 15:19. We know also that he travelled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul, Romans 15:24-28. At the same time, the other apostles were not idle; and there is full proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions.

    For a witness unto all nations. This preaching the gospel indiscriminately to all the Gentiles shall be a proof to them, or a witness, that the division between the Jews and Gentiles was about to be broken down. Hitherto the blessings of revelation had been confined to the Jews. They were the peculiar people of God. His messages had been sent to them only. When, therefore, God sent the gospel to all other people, it was proof, or a witness unto them, that the peculiar Jewish economy was at an end.

    Then shall the end come. The end of the Jewish economy. The destruction of the temple and city.

    Verse 15. The abomination of desolation. This is a Hebrew expression, meaning an abominable or hateful destroyer. The Gentiles were all held in abomination by the Jews, Acts 10:28. The abomination of desolation means the Roman army; and is so explained by Luke 21:20. The Roman army is farther called the abomination, on account of the images of the emperor and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honours.

    Spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Daniel 9:26,27; 11:31; 12:11.

    Stand in the holy place. Mark says, "standing where it ought not," meaning the same thing. All Jerusalem was esteemed holy, Matthew 4:5. The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city, or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple. Josephus farther relates, that when the city was taken, the Romans brought their idols into the temple, and placed them over the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. Jewish Wars, book vi., chap. 6, 1.

    Whoso readeth, etc. This seems to be a remark made by the evangelist, to direct the attention of the reader particularly to the meaning of the prophecy by Daniel.

    Verse 21. There shall be great tribulation. The word tribulation means calamity, or suffering. Luke 21:24 has specified in what this tribulation should consist. "They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled." That is, until the time allotted for the Gentiles to do it shall be fully accomplished; or as long as God is pleased to suffer them to do it.

    The first thing mentioned by Luke is, that they should fall by the edge of the sword. That is, should be slain in war, as the sword was then principally used in war. This was most strikingly fulfilled. Josephus, in describing it, uses almost the very words of our Saviour. All the calamities, says he, which had befallen any nation from the beginning of the world, were but small in comparison with those of the Jews. Jewish Wars, book i., preface, 4.

    He has given the following account of one part of the massacre when the city was taken: "And now rushing into the city, they slew whomsoever they found, without distinction, and burnt the houses and all the people who had fled into them. And when they entered for the sake of plunder, they found whole families of dead persons, and houses full of carcasses destroyed by famine; then they came out with their hands empty. And though they thus pitied the dead, they had not the same emotion for the living, but killed all they met, whereby they filled the lanes with dead bodies. The whole city ran with blood, insomuch that many things which were burning were extinguished by the blood." Jewish Wars, book vi. chap. 8, 5; chap. 9, 2, 3. He adds, that in the siege of Jerusalem, not fewer than eleven hundred thousand perished (Jewish Wars, book vi., chap. 9, 3)--a number almost as great as are in the whole city of London. In the adjacent provinces no fewer than two hundred and fifty thousand are reckoned to have been slain; making in all whose deaths were ascertained, the almost incredible number of one million three hundred and fifty thousand, who were put to death. These were not indeed all slain with the sword. Many were crucified. "Many hundreds," says he, (Jewish Wars, book vi. Chap. xi Chap. xi. 1) "were first whipped, then tormented with various kinds of tortures, and finally crucified: the Roman soldiers nailing them (out of the wrath and hatred they bore to the Jews) one after one way, and another after another, to crosses, by way of jest, until at length the multitude became so great that room was wanting for crosses, and crosses for the bodies." So terribly was their imprecation fulfilled--" His blood be on us, and on our children," Matthew 27:25. If it be asked how it was possible for so many people to be slain in a single city, it is answered, that the siege of Jerusalem commenced during the time of the passover, it is estimated that more than three millions were usually assembled. See Josephus, Jewish Wars, book vi., chap. ix., 3, 4.

    A horrible instance of the distress of Jerusalem is related by Josephus. The famine during the siege became so great that they ate what the most sordid animals refused to touch. A woman of distinguished rank, having been plundered by the soldiers, in hunger, rage, and despair, killed and roasted her babe, and had eaten one half of him before the deed was discovered. Jewish Wars, book vi., chap. 3, 3, 4. This cruel and dreadful act was also in fulfillment of prophecy, Deuteronomy 28:53,56,57.

    Another thing added by Luke Luke 21:24) was, that "they should be led captive into all nations." Josephus informs us that the captives taken during the whole war amounted to ninety-seven thousand. The tall and handsome young men Titus reserved for triumph; of the rest, many were distributed through the Roman provinces, to be destroyed by wild beasts in theatres; many were sent to the works in Egypt; many, especially those under seventeen years of age, were sold for slaves. Jewish Wars, book vi., chap. 9,. 2,3.

    Verse 29. Shall the sun be darkened, etc. The images here used are not to be taken literally. They are often used by the sacred writers to denote any great calamities. As the darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of the stars would be an inexpressible calamity, so any great catastrophe, any overturning of kingdoms or cities, or dethroning of kings and princes, is represented by the darkening of the sun and moon, and by some terrible convulsion in the elements. Thus the destruction of Babylon is foretold in similar terms, Isaiah 13:10; and of Tyre, Isaiah 24:23. The slaughter in Bozrah and Idumea is predicted in the same language, Isaiah 34:4. See also Isaiah 50:3; 60:19,20; Ezekiel 32:7; Joel 3:15. To the description in Matthew, Luke has added, Luke 21:25 there should be "distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts falling them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming upon the earth." All these are figures of great and terrible calamity. The roaring of the waves of the sea denotes great tumult and affliction among the people, Perplexity means doubt, anxiety; not knowing what to do to escape. Men's hearts failing them for fear, or by reason of fear. Their fears would be so great as to take away their courage and strength.

    Verse 34. This generation, etc. This age; this race of men. A generation is about thirty or forty years. The destruction of Jerusalem took place about forty years after this was spoken. See Barnes "Matthew 16:28".

    Till all these things, etc. Till these things shall receive a full accomplishment. Till events shall take place that shall be a complete fulfillment, if there were nothing farther intended. He does not mean to exclude here the reference to the judgment, but to say that the destruction of Jerusalem would be such as to make appropriate the words of the prediction, were there nothing beyond. So when death was threatened to Adam, the propriety of the threatening would have been seen, and the threatening would have been fulfilled, had men suffered only temporal death. At the same time, the threatening had a fulness of meaning, that would cover also, and justify, eternal death in hell. Thus the words of Christ, describing the destruction of Jerusalem, had a fulness of signification that would meet also the events of the judgment, and whose meaning would not be filled up till the world was closed.

    http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024

    The Preterist View

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/what_is_the_preterist_view.htm
     
    #3 Grasshopper, Oct 7, 2011
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  4. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    Did anyone read all of that???
     
    #4 Greektim, Oct 7, 2011
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Well I read it all, and don't think it makes the case for Preterism, much less the Hyper variety. Obviously the Olivet Discourse has much to do with the fall of Jerusalem; I don't think anyone denies that, but it's important to note that according to Matthew, the disciples asked the Lord Jesus three questions. Iin my opinion He answers each one during His discourse and it's not too difficult to find which question He's addressing.

    However:-
    If all prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70, what are the 'times of the Gentiles'? They come after the Jews are led away captive. Are they still going on? When will they be finished? And what comes after they are 'fulfilled'?

    Steve
     
    #5 Martin Marprelate, Oct 8, 2011
  6. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So Paul discovered the Americas, reaching the INCAS, Aztecs, American Indians, he would have reached the native people of Samoa, the Hawaiian Islands, Australian native peoples, the deepest tribes in Africa, the native peoples of south American and the Eskimo peoples, is that what you are saying?
    Notice what was said, "14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." notice christ said in all the WORLD not the known world that man knew but the Whold WORLD as Jesus being God knew this would include those tribes, by your theory there is no need for missionaries to reach these folks Paul and the Apostles and those living before 70 A.D. reached them and Jesus prophecy was fulfilled by what you say. It would be a witness to ALL Nations in ALL the World and those tribes of North & South America and the pacific tribes were not reached, so Christ lied or your preterist theory is incorrect.
    The gospel when presented to these tribes of folks was new when they begin to hear the word from about 1500 A.D. and forward. That is quite a long way from 70 A.D.
     
    #6 revmwc, Oct 11, 2011
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  7. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So when John speaks of this:
    Rev. 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
    14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
    16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

    The image of this great beast was to be worshipped and it was even made to come to life when do you see this happening and all taking the mark o9f that beast or running for their lives and great destruction comes. John was prophesying of the great event yet to come and this image is the Abomination tthat Christ speaks of. But the temple was totally destroyed and Daniel said

    Daniel 9: 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Now we know that the 70 weeks of Daniel was not a 7 day week but weeks of years, each week representing a 7 year period and Daniel says that the Abomination that maketh desolate would come in the midst of that week meaning it would stand for 3 1/2 years. That would exclude it being army of the Romans in 70 A.D.

    Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days
    Backs up the time of the image 1260 days and that is 3 1/2 years. Intersting theory that the abomination was the Roman army but the theory isn't supported by scripture, sorry the theory is wanting.
     
    #7 revmwc, Oct 11, 2011
  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    #8 Grasshopper, Oct 11, 2011
  9. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    #9 revmwc, Oct 11, 2011
  10. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    #10 Grasshopper, Oct 11, 2011
  11. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    #11 revmwc, Oct 11, 2011
  12. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all (holos)the world for a witness unto all(pas) nations; and then shall the end come.

    holos
    Thayer Definition:
    1) all, whole, completely
    Part of Speech: adjective
    　
    pas
    Thayer Definition:
    1) individually
    1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
    2) collectively
    2a) some of all types
    Part of Speech: adjective


    I'm no Greek scholar or English scholar for that matter but it seems to me that pas is used when describing the plural(nations, tribes, etc) and holos used when describing the singular (world).
    　
    Both are found in Matt. 24:14.

    Both are adjectives describing the nouns world and nations. All the known world and all the people groups(nations) in the known world.

    Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all(pas) nations for the obedience of faith:

    Paul says Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled.
     
    #12 Grasshopper, Oct 11, 2011
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  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    There in lies the problem Paul uses pas as you say which references the known world of his time, Jesus in mat 24:14 used Holos which you say "used when describing the singular" or the complete world and the pas for the indiviual nations of that world. Now Paul says the whole roman empire had heard the gospel, however from extra biblical history we see that an ancient copy of the book of Matthew was found in China in the second century. Some even believe Matthew traveled there. So the gospel was reaching the world but not the complete world as Jesus said must happen before His return.

    The word Holos is used in Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole (holos) world (Oikoumene): he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Not the same two words as Matthew 24:14 where Jesus is recorded as saying All (Holos) the World (Oikoumene). Satan decieveth the whole world that would be all mankind who have not believed.

    Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole (Holos) world (Oikoumene), to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
    Again we see the same term Jesus used the demons go unto the kings (plural) of the earth and of the complete (whole) world. We see now the context of Mat 24:14 that the gospel would be preached to the complete (Holos) World. This has yet to happen which proves to us that Christ could not have come in 70 A.D. and ALL things have been fulfilled. Mat 24:34 All (pas each and every) or All collectively be fulfilled and they have not.
     
    #13 revmwc, Oct 11, 2011
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Jesus used pas, Paul used pas.

    If you think the use of these two words destroy a preterist interpretation then more power to you. I think you are grasping at straws.
     
    #14 Grasshopper, Oct 11, 2011
  15. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Jesus used holos "all the world" then the use of pas all nations. So again you see the use of Holos means the complte world.
     
    #15 revmwc, Oct 11, 2011
  16. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    I guess Paul should have retired from the Gospel ministry 10 years earlier.
     
    #16 thomas15, Oct 12, 2011
  17. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Good thing he understood what Jesus meant and didn't listen to the doubting Thomas15 of his day. But I'm confused, are you both saying Paul was wrong when he proclaimed the Gospel had been made known to all the nations? No one really wants to give a straight answer on that.
     
    #17 Grasshopper, Oct 12, 2011
  18. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    to All the nation on the earth, or to ALL nations known at that time, IE the Roman Empire?
     
    #18 JesusFan, Oct 12, 2011
  19. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I answered maybe you missed it, Paul was speaking of each nation known in that time, Christ spoke of the Complete world, thus the difference in Paul using on pas and Jesus use of Holos and then pas. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all (holos)the world for a witness unto all(pas) nations; and then shall the end come.

    Remember Holos means: all, whole, completely, so that the Whole Complete World would have the gospel preached to it before He returned, which was not fulfilled by 70 A.D.

    Then Christ and Paul said that all (pas) and Pas means:
    1) individually
    1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
    2) collectively
    2a) some of all types

    Paul said Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all(pas) nations for the obedience of faith

    Each nation known at that time had the scriptures of the prophets, notice what Jesus said and then what Paul said.
    Jesus "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all (holos)the world"

    Paul "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all(pas) nations"

    Two different things they New Testament was still being written when Paul made that statement in Romans 6 mankind didn't have the full canon so all that God would reveal to man had not been completed when Paul made that statement. Therefore Paul was not saying the whole world had received the Gospel but that the scriptures of the prophets had been made known to them.
     
    #19 revmwc, Oct 12, 2011
  20. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all(holos) the world for a witness unto all(pas)nations; and then shall the end come.


    Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole (holos)world.

    Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all(pas) nations for the obedience of faith:

    Matthew 24:14 fulfilled according to the words of Paul, using the same words as Jesus.

    Game, set, match.....with a cherry on top:


    Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    John Gill:

    shall be preached in all the world; not only in Judea, where it was now confined, and that by the express orders of Christ himself; but in all the nations of the world, for which the apostles had their commission enlarged, after our Lord's resurrection; when they were bid to go into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature; and when the Jews put away the Gospel from them, they accordingly turned to the Gentiles; and before the destruction of Jerusalem, it was preached to all the nations under the heavens; and churches were planted in most places, through the ministry of it:
    for a witness unto all nations; meaning either for a witness against all such in them, as should reject it; or as a testimony of Christ and salvation, unto all such as should believe in him:
    and then shall the end come; not the end of the world, as the Ethiopic version reads it, and others understand it; but the end of the Jewish state, the end of the city and temple: so that the universal preaching of the Gospel all over the world, was the last criterion and sign, of the destruction of Jerusalem; and the account of that itself next follows, with the dismal circumstances which attended it.

    :wavey::wavey:
     
    #20 Grasshopper, Oct 12, 2011
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