When did you Receive The Sin nature?

Because we also have a conscience.

 

Romans 3:10-18 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." 13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS"; 14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS"; 15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, 17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN." 18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

None righteous. The unsaved man has no inclination towards righteousness or the things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14-15 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

The natural, or unsaved, man not only has no inclination towards good or righteousness, he is incapable of both.

 

As far as I know the bible never uses that terminology, "sin nature." We have the flesh and that never leaves us and because we are born separated from God we seek after that which best satisfies us, sin. After salvation we still have the flesh, but we now have the Spirit so we seek after that which please Him with an occasional sin.

 

More scripture that I believe refutes we are born with a sin nature;

Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Was Jesus telling his disciples they need to be CONVERTED and BECOME little wicked sinners to enter heaven? Absurd.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Does God assign angels to personally watch over wicked little sinners? Ridiculous.

 

I believe he had the same nature Adam was created with, however he was conceived by the God spirit Holy and was indwelt with the Holy Spirit from conception and walked in the Spirit yet at on point in his life had to; resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

At his death he commended this spirit unto the hands of the Father and was renewed with it at his resurrection. Life comes from the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is inclusive in the promises made to Abraham and his one seed Christ. Acts 2:33 says Jesus received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father then it was shed on us.

See post in "Did God Ordain the Fall".

He was able to overcome. I have much, much trouble overcoming.

And that worries me.

 

You're yelling!

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul shows here the natural man can hear and believe the gospel and afterward receives the Holy Spirit. And nobody is regenerated without the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Now read 1 Cor 2:12, these persons had already received the Spirit (thus they had already heard and believed), so these "things" in vss. 9-15 cannot mean the gospel. The natural man can hear and believe the gospel, and once he does can understand the "things" of the Spirit.

See also Eph 1:13 where Paul again says men #1 hear the gospel, #2 believes, #3 receives the Spirit.

Faith precedes receiveing the Spirit and regeneration.

 

One of the things that is frustrating about this board is how some people often ignore biblical arguments made by another and respond by throwing out a few verses to support their own presuppositions. It's as though the other person never said a word. Not only is that rude, but it's unscholarly. I'm not making a personal attack here, so please don't respond as though I am. Why not at least attempt to deal with the biblical argument your opponent in the discussion makes? Amazing things happen when that is done. First, you immediately have respect in the eyes of the other person. When someone takes the time to respond to my argument it says to me, "Even though I disagree with you, I respect you. I am going to give your argument careful consideration and respond accordingly." If all did that I have a feeling that much of the rancor, sarcasm, and insults on this board would simply vanish.

Okay, end of rant.

Umm...actually, I'm not. The cap letters from the Romans 3 passage appear that way in my bible program because it's a quote from the Old Testament.

You will hear no argument from me, or anyone who holds to Reformed theology, that salvation is by faith alone. Sola fide accurately describes the biblical view of salvation. However, regeneration does precede faith, and it's not necessary for every biblical writer to state it that way.

In Galatians 3 Paul was dealing with the issue of the Law being mixed with grace. He wasn't writing a polemic on the ordo salutis (the order of salvation), so it wasn't necessary to delve into regeneration. If we want to do the issue justice we need to consider the whole counsel of God. In a past post I quoted this Pauline verse to defend the point that man not only doesn't desire to understand God, he is incapable of doing so:

1 Corinthians 2:14 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Besides the fact that no one has yet dealt with that passage, this verse doesn't stand alone in emphasizing mankind's total inability (the opposite side of the total depravity coin). Ephesians 2 displays another instance of total inability.

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Ephesians 2:4-7 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

First, Paul explains to the Ephesians, that in their prior "unsaved" state, they were spiritually dead. The word for dead is nekros, not thanatos. nekros means physically dead, as in a corpse. It is the word that would be used to describe a dead body. Modern medicine uses it to describe dead skin - necrosis. thanatos means a state of death. If I were to walk into a party and everyone was sitting around doing nothing, I could say, "This room is thanatos." Paul used a physical word to describe the Ephesians prior condition. It's meaning is very clear. When's the last time you went to a viewing and saw the body get up from the casket and have a conversation? Obviously, never. And why not? Because the body is nekros - dead. The body not only has no desire, it has no ability. Later, in verse 4, Paul writes that God had to take action first in order to save His elect. Verse 5 says, "even when we were dead in our transgressions..." There is the word nekros again. Even when we were a spiritually cold corpse; unable to respond to the stimuli around us, God made us alive. How did God make us alive? By what means? A quick trip to the Old Testament may shed some light on this.

Ezekiel 36:25-26 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."

This passage in Ezekiel reveals and explains regeneration. Regeneration has often been called the "quickening work of the Holy Spirit." Here is where God takes the nekros heart and transforms it in an instant. What was once dead becomes alive. Whereas the individual once had no desire and no ability, now he posses both; an unquenchable desire for God and the ability to believe in Him by faith.

The ordo salutis is a theological term to describe the order of salvation. It basically states that scripture teaches regeneration, faith, salvation. Regeneration is when the Holy Spirit breathes life into a stone dead heart. Once that heart has been quickened, or made alive, the individual is then able to exercise faith (believe). Once belief takes place salvation is completed. There is no convincing evidence in Scripture to support the contention that a person can be regenerated for a lengthy period before they exercise faith. The events of the ordo salutis happen so quickly that they are indiscernible. However, regeneration occurs by necessity before faith is exercised. If it didn't then it would be impossible for man to employ faith because, in his sinful condition (1 Cor. 2:14) he has no desire or ability.

Please forgive me if it sounds like I'm lecturing. I honestly do not mean to come across that way. But these truths need to be explained. Perhaps some of my dear brethren on this board have explained them in the past. If so, then a refresher is never a bad thing.

 

Very interesting and well written. This rases a queston. Based on what you have stated as an explaination for rengeneration do you believe that every person who is regenerated will come to faith or will some turn and fall away? I tend to the later because of hebrews 6:6

 

Well, I did read your post and disagree with you. I do not care for how you try to explain away Gal 3:2. Paul asks a very straightforward rhetorical question that naturally implies these believers received the Holy Spirit by the (#1) hearing of (#2) faith. I can show you many examples of this in scripture.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

Don't tell me this verse doesn't address order, if you want people to listen to you, don't insult their intelligence.

Jn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

None of the OT believers or the apostles had the Holy Spirit until Jesus rose and was glorified. The apostles did not receive the Spirit until Jn 20:22.

The scriptures clearly show a person can believe without being regenerated. I've read Sproul, he is in gross error.

Jn 20:31 But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believeing ye might have life through his name.

What did John say enabled us to believe? The word of God. And what will we have if we believe? Life!

Regeneration is life. The Bible says you must hear the word of God and believe to have life.

None of your fancy arguments and Greek words will convince me, I believe the word of God, and the scriptures ALWAYS show faith precedes regeneration.

 

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Win let me ask you something, Could the misunderstanding of the term regeneration be because of semantics? In other words could you be understanding "regeneration" with one meaning and Herald another?
I prefer the word renew because of the Hebrew 6:6 passage, but in this case reneneration is being used. What do you think?

 

I view Hebrews 6:6 differently. I believe it is referring to those who have heard, seen, and benefited from the graces of the visible Church, but were never part of the invisible Church. Because they have esteemed lightly the things of God, and specifically Christ, there no longer remains any hope of them. It's the Gospel or nothing. Reject the Gospel and you are without hope (1 John 2:19).

 

Was that really necessary?

I understand that you're not convinced. My response wasn't primarily directed towards you. On most discussion boards there are many who read but never respond. Perhaps some will be persuaded by my argument to study the Scriptures and come to a better understanding of the truth. If that happens then your disagreement with what I have to say becomes of little consequence in the grand scheme of things. Come to think of it the same goes for me. If I'm teaching error I earnestly pray the Lord delivers others from following me.

 

I agree that to reject the gospel leaves no hope. But I have a problem interpreting these verses.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

If someone has partaken of the Holy Spirit, is he not saved?

What is your take on this? I have always had trouble with it. I have seen people get saved (at least it appeared so), they had all the marks of a saved person, and then fell away even to denying the existence of God. I have never been able to make sense of it.

 

Amy, GREAT question. The word for enlighten in Hebrews 6 can mean to shine or even be shined upon. False professors (which I believe Hebrews 6:6 and 1 John 2:19 are describing) have had the light shined upon them in that they've seen the visible work of the Spirit in the Church.

Lets say a person comes into your church and attends for a year. Most likely they would be greeted by many different people. They would hear the Gospel proclaimed from the pulpit. They would experience the love of the saints. Perhaps they would be invited into the homes of different members. If they needed assistance maybe your church would even pay a utility bill. If we use our imaginations we can come up with a myriad of ways in which this person could witness and experience the visible work of the Spirit of God. But at the end of that year they leave. They enjoyed the "loaves and fishes" but never came to faith in Christ. In fact, when they leave they are rejecting the only real hope they have of salvation. That is why I referenced 1 John 2:19:

1 John 2:19 9 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

 

1 John is a book I look to often, but there is no mention of not being renewed (regenerated), just not saved in 2:19.
Also because of the structure in Hebrews verses 4-6 when it says this I think it holds a different meaning.;

For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

First the letter is dealing with OT Jews, not the church although it can be applied to the church in if done properly. I think it is talking about the Jew and all they experienced under the law, and has nothing to do with some experience with the church. The Jew had experienced all that is mentioned in the verses and to fall away now they are left with nothing.

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

If you notice it does not say renew to repentance again, but rather to renew them again unto repentance. The order is very important. In other words they were renewed (I think regenerated), but they did not repent and fell away after all the information they had. So now because there is no new information to give they cannot be renewed again so as to repent and they will remain lost with no hope. The only way to renew them again would be to crucify to themselves the Lord again. In other words they did not believe in the actual work of Christ even with an over whelming amount of information even to the taking part in the things of the Spirit, (Not personally having the Spirit but being in the place where they experienced His working) so now they cannot be renewed (regenerated) a new without dishonoring Christ by requiring Him to be crucified again so they will never be saved.The writer is saying to these Jews look at all the evidence and come all the way lest you turn back and have no chance of salvation.

 

Depends on which Reformed author you read. Many do not really explain what they mean, while others will come right out and say it means to be born again, to have spiritual life. I think some don't really know what they believe.

But the scriptures are clear;

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit will come to reprove the world, and that is what we see here. These men were pricked in their hearts, they were convicted. But they were not regenerated, Peter told them to repent, to turn to Jesus in faith, and then they would receive the Spirit. You ALWAYS see this order in scripture; #1 hear the word of God, #2 believe, #3 receive the Spirit.

Now, how can you be alive if the Spirit is not in you? You can hear the Spirit speak to you, but you are not alive until the Spirit enters you. This is when you are born again, made spiritually alive, have life.

Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

You have to receive Jesus, that is believe on him, and only then does God give you the POWER TO BECOME a son of God.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

you know, irrespective of when I received it, I almost always completely enjoyed it & I probably still do. This being nice over naughty is really over rated.....Sorry God!

 

You are welcome. You might see my post changed, when I tried to correct typos, I lost some text (cell phone).

The Cals will argue vs. 13 is saying a person was first regenerated, but it is explaining how we BECOME a son of God in vs. 12

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You can't become a son of God through the blood, you cannot inherit it as many Jews believed they were sons of God because they were descendants of Abraham. And we cannot will ourselves to be born again. Only God has the power to make us sons of God when we submit to his will and believe on his Son Jesus.

The will of the flesh or the will of man will always try to save himself or earn his own salvation as Cain did when he brought a sacrifice of the fruit of the ground- his works (Gen 4:3).

 

"The will of the flesh or the will of man will always try to save himself or earn his own salvation".


Do you really think that? .....at most, maybe some ....but most assuredly, not all! Not in my hood at least! We must live in two different worlds.:smilewinkgrin: