Im not following you....why do I have to show you belief before regeneration?
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When did you Receive The Sin nature?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Im not following you....why do I have to show you belief before regeneration?
Winman, please forgive me for breaking into this danceBelief and faith are the same thing. They are the verb and noun forms of the same word - pistueo. I thought that would help your discussion.
Okay, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Thank you Herald, but I already knew that.
The issue is to show verses that show that a person is born again or has life before faith. There are no such verses in the Bible, not one. EW&F showed verses that we need a new heart, we need to be born again, nobody disputes that. But the verses he listed did not mention faith whatsoever. The verses I provided directly showed that a person must first believe before receiving the Holy Spirit and life.
There are numerous examples of people believeing before receiving the Spirit.
Jn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
The disciples believed here. Was it unassisted by God or the Spirit? No, they saw a supernatural miracle that enabled them to believe. But in Jn 4:39 we see the Samaritans believed simply because of the testimony of the woman at the well.
Jn 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
No magic here, these Samaritans believed on Jesus because of the woman's testimony.
But no one had the Spirit yet, the Spirit was not given until after Jesus rose and was glorified (Jn 7:39)
The disciples did not receive the Spirit till after Jesus rose.
Jn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
So, as you see, the apostles and many others believed long (3 years) before they received the Holy Spirit.
Exactly what I thought
So from your prospective, ahhhm, God’s grace is not dependent on your "Belief" or is it.....Im confused
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Then explain this to me....2 Timothy 1:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
New International Version (NIV)
9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Didn't you mean to ask if I believe faith is dependant on God's grace? ABSOLUTELY, but not the way you believe.
You believe the natural man is UNABLE to believe God, I believe the scriptures show natural man is ABLE to believe God.
You can choose to believe anything you want. Some people believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone when he assasinated JFK, many others believe he was part of a conspiracy. I tend toward the conspiracy because although I was only 9 years old I thought it incredible that Jack Ruby could enter a police station with literally hundreds of police officers standing guard and walk directly up to Oswald and shoot him in his guts from inches away. They walked Oswald right up to Ruby. So, even as a kid this seemed fantastic.
We use faith every day. When you open a can of soup and eat it you are trusting the contents are safe.
That said, no one could possibly believe in Jesus unless God had revealed him to us. The prophets spoke of him for thousands of years. Jesus performed thousands of miracles. But the only reason you and I know this and can believe is because God has preserved his Holy Scriptures and sent preachers out. If not for this, neither you or I could possibly know about or believe in Jesus.
Because Winman made this statement:
To which you replied:
I replied to your post with:
And you responded to my post with a bunch of verses that do not even speak of faith. Got it?
No I dont got it!
That is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. :thumbsup:
I don't know what LEV is.
I think, as Herald was saying, this could also include those who have been exposed to the gospel and even shared membership in the church, then turned away. Do you agree?
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Ok, I'll s l o w d o w n.............:laugh:
Cal's believe regeneration preceeds faith, correct? Do you agree?
If so, please show verses that say this. So far, you have not.
Belief is a sign of life…it confirms that you have been born again, it is not the cause of regeneration but an effect of it.
Ok. But once again, you offer no scripture. Please supply scripture to back up your belief. Otherwise it is simply your opinion.
You probably really don't get it, and I think I know why. I will ask you a riddle. I have to go to the store, but I should be back in twenty minutes. Humor me, there is a point to this riddle and see if you can answer it. It is not too difficult, and there IS an answer you can figure out. OK, here is the riddle, first one to get it gets honors for being clever.
There is a man who wants to go home, but he cannot, because there is a man with a mask waiting for him there.
Who is this man who wants to go home?
Good luck, be back soon.
Now your the riddler.....no thanks, I will pass thank you. Go play your games elsewhere.
Again....its much more than opinion. Its testimony, both my own & others. This you dont believe so....there we have it stalemate.
freeatlast
New Member
Sorry, LEV= Leviticus
Well let me answer you this way about what Herald said. By the way he seems very knowledgeable about the bible. First the book of Hebrews is titled that way because of one reason. It is speaking and dealing with Hebrews (Jews) at the time of the writing and even for today.
However because of 2Tim 3:16 I think maybe it can be applied to a gentile today IF the person in question has experienced all the things mentioned in the text although that would be difficult in my opinion. If it is applied to a gentile It is not that they came and were playing church by claiming to be Christians, and are not Christians and then leave, but they came for some period of time and after they had all the evidence possible mentioned in the text they decide that they still do not believe that Jesus alone is the answer for forgiveness and they turn to animal sacrifices along with all the OT ceremonies.
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What do you mean it's testimony? If you cannot back it up with scripture, you cannot make it doctrine!
There is no stalemate. You lose.
freeatlast
New Member
The man is a base runner in a baseball game.
Not every argument in theology is backed up by a specific Bible quote. I believe sin enters the soul of man somewhere between its 6th month and actual birth; a period when that infant can survive independent of the mother.
Scripturally, we can only read that "man is born in sin and trespasses..." We incorporate this thought into theological thought for consistency."
Cheers,
Jim
Scripturally, we can only read that "man is born in sin and trespasses..." We incorporate this thought into theological thought for consistency."
Cheers,
Jim