When did you Receive The Sin nature?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To add to this, since when does God give life to an unbeliever?

Ahhhh, so there is the crux of the argument then!

well was Paul a believer or was he a killer of Christians?

Was Augustine a believer or a scoffer & fornicator?

I dont know......why do I suddenly believe where I never before believed


LETS ASK WINMAN!

 

[Iconoclast]

Jn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believeing ye might have life through his name.

Why did John write his gospel? So that we MIGHT BELIEVE. No regeneration mentioned here.

And what does John say believeing brings? LIFE.

Regeneration means to be made alive again. You can't be regenerated and be dead. But the scriptures show faith precedes life. Therefore you cannot have regeneration unless you first believe.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believeth thou this?

Well, do you?

Winman,
None of these verses mention faith, or regeneration. Thats the verse I want you to offer:laugh: The one that says faith precedes regeneration, you or Amy cannot show it:wavey:

Winman, I do not want your speculation or philosophy...I want the verse that says faith precedes regeneration.

 

[Winman]

FAL, here is scripture that shows you have to believe before the word of God effectually works in you.

1 Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

You have to believe the word of God for it to effectually (bring about an effect) works in you. If you do not believe, you are like the wayside soil that is hard and trampled down, the seed lies on the surface and the fowls come and take it away. You do not spring to life.

 

[psalms109:31]

Since faith comes from the words about Jesus and the words of Jesus which is Spirit and life you can't have faith or life without His word period. So our faith has to come first and through these words brings us our faith and life.

When we walk away from Christ and His word we walk away from our only life, apart from Him death.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Philippians 2:16
as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.

1 John 1:1
[ The Incarnation of the Word of Life ] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[Winman]

Winman,
None of these verses mention faith, or regeneration. Thats the verse I want you to offer:laugh: The one that says faith precedes regeneration, you or Amy cannot show it:wavey:

Winman, I do not want your speculation or philosophy...I want the verse that says faith precedes regeneration.

I could ask you the same thing, show where the scriptures say regeneration precedes faith. The word "regeneration" only occurs twice in the scriptures, in Mat 19:28 and Tit 3:5, and in neither is faith mentioned. Faith is implied in Mat 19:28 however preceding regeneration.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This was spoken only to Jesus's disciples, but it clearly shows those who followed him shall sit on thrones in the regeneration. This implies faith, true believers are followers.

Titus 3:5 does not mention faith, so it cannot be used to support either side.

Regeneration by definition means to be generated, or made alive again. Many verses say you must believe to have life or regeneration.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If regeneration means life (and it does) then you must believe to HAVE life or regeneration.

You don't have scripture on your side, but I do.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

If regeneration means life (and it does) then you must believe to HAVE life or regeneration.

You don't have scripture on your side, but I do

Dead men cannot believe,or exercise faith....because they are dead.

You failed to produce the scripture that says otherwise...because you cannot.
This is not a surprise. The historic faith stands...your ideas do not overturn the Historic belief of the church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So winman you havent answered my question then.....How could I have been regenerated without Believing?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Winman....did Paul have faith when he was killing Christians......how did he fall off that horse?

 

[Winman]

So winman you havent answered my question then.....How could I have been regenerated without Believing?

You couldn't, you must believe to have life or regeneration. It is Calvinism that teaches you have life before faith which is easily refuted by many verses which I have been showing.

What does John 3:16 show comes first, believeing or having life?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You couldn't, you must believe to have life or regeneration. It is Calvinism that teaches you have life before faith which is easily refuted by many verses which I have been showing.

What does John 3:16 show comes first, believeing or having life?

It has nothing to do with Calvinism...quit standing behind that. I hated God & Calvinism & anything to do with that stuff & still I was regenerated.

 

[Winman]

Winman


Dead men cannot believe,or exercise faith....because they are dead.

You failed to produce the scripture that says otherwise...because you cannot.
This is not a surprise. The historic faith stands...your ideas do not overturn the Historic belief of the church.

Jesus himself refutes you, he said the dead shall hear his voice, and they (the dead) that hear SHALL (afterward) live. (Jn 5:25)

Calvinism says the spiritually dead are not able to be willing to hear Jesus, but Jesus said they could, and those that hear him SHALL live.

You can deny all you want, but that does not make you right.

You show no scripture that supports your doctrine, I have shown you much that supports mine but you deny it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Then forget about me....tell me how Paul did it with being a murderer & a hater of Christ...how did that happen!

 

[Winman]

Then forget about me....tell me how Paul did it with being a murderer & a hater of Christ...how did that happen!

The moment he believed Jesus was the Christ and called him Lord he was changed and started serving Christ.

Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

This was the first time Paul called Jesus "Lord". He had not believed Jesus was the promised Christ before this and was persecuting Christians. The moment he believed his heart was changed and he served Jesus from this moment forwards.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The moment he believed Jesus was the Christ and called him Lord he was changed and started serving Christ.

Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonised said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

This was the first time Paul called Jesus "Lord". He had not believed Jesus was the promised Christ before this and was persecuting Christians. The moment he believed his heart was changed and he served Jesus from this moment forwards.

So your saying he (Paul) had a change of heart? Interesting because he was such an enthusiastic Pharisee that the bible tells us he even held the cloaks of the men throwing stones! Hard to believe he could of had a change of heart....and doesnt that change of heart come after regeneration? Not logical???

 

[Winman]

So your saying he (Paul) had a change of heart? Interesting because he was such an enthusiastic Pharisee that the bible tells us he even held the cloaks of the men throwing stones! Hard to believe he could of had a change of heart....and doesnt that change of heart come after regeneration? Not logical???

No, I agree with you, but he believed first. The moment he believed he was regenerated and his heart changed.

How in the world could his attitude toward Jesus change if he still believed Jesus was a false prophet? How could he desire to serve Jesus if he did not believe him?

You think I am your enemy now, but if I show you scripture that convinces you I am telling the truth, your attitude toward me will change.

Faith MUST precede the change of heart. Besides being logical, it is what the scriptures actually say.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Winman,
None of these verses mention faith, or regeneration. Thats the verse I want you to offer:laugh: The one that says faith precedes regeneration, you or Amy cannot show it:wavey:

Winman, I do not want your speculation or philosophy...I want the verse that says faith precedes regeneration.

Two things Winman......(1) Please comply with Icons request above.

(2) Can you define for me "the sin of unbelief"....I invite anyone else as well to define it & include it's characteristics HOWEVER I would like WINMAN to answer as well.

Thanks

 

[Winman]

Two things Winman......(1) Please comply with Icons request above.

(2) Can you define for me "the sin of unbelief"....I invite anyone else as well to define it & include it's characteristics HOWEVER I would like WINMAN to answer as well.

Thanks

#1 I did answer Icon, go back a few posts. The word regeneration is only found twice in the scriptures, and neither verse directly mentions faith, so these verses cannot be used to support either side. But regeneration by definition means to be "generated" or made alive "again". So verses like Jn 3:16 and Jn 20:31 that say if we believe we shall have "life" support my view, as everyone understands these verses to be speaking of being born again, to have spiritual life, everlasting life etc...

#2 Unbelief can very simply be defined to be calling God a liar.

1 Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

So, unbelief is calling God a liar, it is saying that the word of God is a lie.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

#2 Unbelief can very simply be defined to be calling God a liar.

1 Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

So, unbelief is calling God a liar, it is saying that the word of God is a lie.

I would disagree with your definition of Unbelief as a lie. John is embellishing to another plateau to draw out lie....i.e.; "Your making God out to being a liar by your unbelief". Yes but because the Unbeliever would say "Yes well I just dont believe in you. Go away & bother someone else". John is basically saying the act of unbelief just serves to diminish .....however to have the sin of non-belief is to say no or negate(IE reject) the thing you want me to believe in....unbelief [ˌʌnbɪˈliːf]
n
(Christian Religious Writings / Theology) disbelief or rejection of belief

You see the subtle difference, right.

Now, "Does the cross cover the sin of unbelief"?

 

[Winman]

I would disagree with your definition of Unbelief as a lie. John is embellishing to another plateau to draw out lie....i.e.; "Your making God out to being a liar by your unbelief". Yes but because the Unbeliever would say "Yes well I just dont believe in you. Go away & bother someone else". John is basically saying the act of unbelief just serves to diminish .....however to have the sin of non-belief is to say no or negate(IE reject) the thing you want me to believe in....unbelief [ˌʌnbɪˈliːf]
n
(Christian Religious Writings / Theology) disbelief or rejection of belief

You see the subtle difference, right.

Now, "Does the cross cover the sin of unbelief"?

I have no idea what you are saying here, but no one can be saved if they refuse to trust Jesus alone to save them.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is your supposition that anyone can.....am I correct?