Interpretation of John 6:35-40

So those who do a work of believing in jesus in and by themselves are elcted on that basis by God? That its due to us accepting jesus, that we have that intrinsic means within us?

Yet again a Calvinism advocate misrepresents my view, so they are still missing the mark close to 100% of the time.

Does a person come to Jesus without being drawn by the Father? I said everyone who comes to Jesus has been drawn by the Father. So what do the Calvinism advocates do, they claim I am saying people come to Christ all on their own. Deception folks, systemic deception.

seem to base this on what we do, based upon how we decide to handle Jesus..

Here we see the Calvinism advocate deny Christ's words, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Do you see God knowing who will get saved beforehand, or does He wait to see what we will choose to do?

The Calvinist advocates on this BB cannot defend Calvinism, so they try to hide it under the umbrella of total omniscience. Constantly shifting the topic off Calvinism's false doctrines and onto something Arminians will defend, i.e. Skandelon.

Calvinism is defended by nothing sound, or compelling, but only by the tools of deception.

 

Again, I'm not denying that all, including Gentiles, must be 'enabled.'

I'd be happy to walk through those passages as well, but to keep the length under control maybe we can start new threads on those passages?

Nor do I. God elected Israel to be the nation through which redemption would be brought to the world. He reserved a remnant from Israel from the hardening process so that His purpose in electing them might stand. A select few were chosen from Israel for the noble purpose of making redemption known to the world and appealing for all God's enemies to be reconciled, while the rest were chosen for the ignoble purpose of remaining in their hardened rebellion (ref Rom 9).

Israel is hardened to God's revelation, while the Gentiles were ignorant of it. This is why Paul contrasts the Jews, who have 'become hardened' and the Gentiles "who will listen." (Acts 28:28) Ignorance can be fixed with the truth of the gospel, and even hardening can be overcome by envy (ref. Rom 11:14). So, God is merciful in both taking the gospel to the Gentiles and in hardening the Jews, because both problems (hardened heart and ignorance) are addressed when the gospel brings conversion to the Gentiles. Paul explains this in detail in Romans 11.

Nor would I. But you are right in that our view of election is different.

I hold to a pretty basic "Arminian" view. In other words, it is nothing new, but many today are not real knowledgable about the doctrine of judicial hardening and how it relates to this discussion. I assure you that the "Arminians" of Calvin's day understood it well. I'm glad to answer questions as you have them and I'll attempt to be as clear as possible. It is important to understand the opponents perspective before you can really refute it fairly. So, even if you never agree with what I'm arguing it would still be good to fully understand it.

Here is a big issue between our views. I believe words wrought by God (sent and inspired by Him) are powerful. In Jn 6 Jesus said, "The words I speak to you are spirit and life." And those words are being hidden in parables lest the hearers repent (Mk 4; Matt 13) And there are dozens of texts that speak of the power of the WORD. Yes, some of that is in reference to the person of Christ, but one can't underestimate the words that testify to the Word and inspired by Him. In fact, Jesus said it will be by his words that all mankind is judged (Jn 12).

His words will NOT return void! They will accomplish their purpose. I believe the purpose of the gospel is to make an appeal for God's enemies to be reconciled to him. I think it ALWAYS accomplishes that purpose. That is not saying that I believe it always saves, but that it always 'makes the appeal' so as to grant/invite/enable whoever hears it to respond and thus be held to account for how they respond to God's appeal. Make sense?

I do. And I don't believe the gospel is EVER preached apart from the work of the Spirit, because the Gospel IS a work of the Spirit. The gospel was inspired by the Spirit, it's preserved by the Spirit, it is carried by HS indwelled men, it is proclaimed by His Bride and I believe this truth, even when preached by false teachers, carries inherent HS Power because it is HIS WORDS. Make sense?

Yet, there is a distinction of the HS being sent at Pentecost, is there not? We must ask what that distinction could be considering that we are told that the HS will come and convict the world of sin and give greater understanding and guidance...a most needed solution to a depravity problem, don't you think?

This is getting long so I'll pick up here in another post...

 

But, Jesus wasn't entrusting himself to all those who were expressing faith in him (Jn 2:24); in fact when he began with difficult teachings such "eat my flesh" in John 6 they turned and left him leaving only the 12 by his side. He spoke in parables to keep men from repenting (why is this necessary if pre-regeneration is necessary?) He explains his mysterious teachings to his apostles, but the rest he provokes with hard sayings. And he tells those close to him to keep things secret. He has a purpose to accomplish and this requires most people remain in darkness and unsupportive of Him. They won't crucify him otherwise. He must provoke them and keep them confused with a 'spirit of stupor' "otherwise they might see, hear, understand and repent." Understand what I'm saying now?

They don't. They need the same thing, but the difference is that the Jews have become hardened by God's revelation over years and are now being judicially hardened (blinded by God in their already rebellious condition so they will reject Christ). They BOTH need the light, but the light is being hidden from Israel for a time. Make sense?

As explained above, blindness from ignorance is fixed by knowledge, and blindness from "growing calloused" over time of rebellion can be fixed by envy and other provoking means. But, what confuses the issue is that God is actively and purposefully sealing most of Israel in their blindness (hardenness) for a time, in other words, He is 'cutting them off,' while he is 'grafting in the Gentiles.' (ref Rom 11)

Not exactly, no. Maybe some of my explanation above provides the needed clarity, but if not let me know.

In short, to come to Christ everyone (both Jew and Gentile) needs to know and understand the gospel first. Calvinists claim that is impossible for anyone unless regenerated.

I say it is possible for anyone to come to Christ who clearly hears and understands the gospel, which was impossible for the judicially hardened Jew for a time (but that even they may be saved once provoked to envy -Rm 11:14). As long as God was sending them a 'spirit of stupor' they could not really hear the gospel, thus the statement "he who has ears let him hear." But there is NO reason to suggest that those without the "spirit of stupor" (judicial hardening) were under the same restraint. The Gentiles, not being sent this 'spirit of stupor,' may see, hear, understand and repent.

The other confusing part is that God has hand selected a few messengers from among Israel for the noble purpose of taking the gospel to the world. That causes some to think this is proof God chooses individuals who hear their message to be saved. But, proof that God used outward effectual means to convince Jonah to go preach in Nineveh (storm/big fish), is not proof that God uses inward secret means to convince preselected audience members to respond in faith to his message (effectual calling). Make sense?

 

I am no way near as theologically eloquent as most here. But I have a question, what was the purpose that God elected a man Abram, to become a "peculiar people of his own"? What was the purpose of setting apart the Hebrews? Missional wasn't it? To be a light and beacon to a pagan world?

 

Absolutely! That was part of the gospel message... Gen 12:3 through Abraham all the nations would be blessed (Gal. 3:8). Election is not an end but a means to an end, the furtherance of the gospel and the way in which God's mission to redeem creation is to be accomplished.

(I finished C. Wright's book last week and started on the "other Wright's" NT and the People of God. We had that discussion about Mission of God didn't we?).

 

Yes we did, does this missional aspect of the biblical narrative give you any tension in being of the "reformed" persuasion? I ask this, not as a "gotcha" thingy in any way, but "humbly".

 

Thanks for the reply zrs6v4. You are very kind with the word "awkward". Most keep in store for those of "the Pauline gospel to the Gentile" the word heretic.

I evidently misunderstood what you were wanting for discussion purposes as it looked as though you wished to have 1-4 that was listed to be up for discussion. I'll comment on John 6:35-45 as shown in your post. I do not claim to answer from Cal., or Arm. positions, but from the position of a dispensational foundation as this is what I see to be shown to us in His Word (Ephesians 1:25 and others). I am not saying others have not looked into this matter, only foreign to most, for it does not neat the standard of orthodoxy of the Catholic, or the various denominations.

John 6:35 To whom is Jesus speaking. He was speaking only to those we see in verse in verse 33. This indicates all other peoples are excluded at this time.

36) The people of Israel saw Him, and didn't believe Him. This is heart breaking.

37) Those people of Israel that His Father gave to Him will not be cast out of His Kingdom (Luke 22:28-29). Each one of the Gospels informs us as to whom He is interested in while He was on this earth.

38) God chose Himself a people, and the Word of God became flesh. Te Word of God, Jesus who is the Son of God will do the will of God that sent Him (I Samuel 9:27; John 1:14). Jesus accomplished the will of God. But as I posted before, through Him, Jesus Christ was not available as Jesus lived.

39) At the last day, Jesus will raise up those of Israel, those that His Father gave to Him. Confirms verse 37.

40) He reiterates it is the will of God His Father, for those that see Him (Jesus), believing ON Him, will arise at the last day, having everlasting life.

41) These are identified as Jews narrowing to those of Israel that are of Judah, and Benjamin. Those Jews of Jerusalem murmured at Him.

42) These of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37) at this time are no different than their fathers.

43) Jesus says, quit your murmuring and listen to me.

44) As Jesus lived as man on this earth, and before ascending on High to take His place beside HisFarther, sitting on the Fathers right hand side, He tells us in His own words, as reported by John - "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Should we not take notice here to what Jesus says in Matthew 15:23-24? This will answer to whom His Father sent Him. Other than a proselyte, we cannot find in scripture a Gentile being saved, i.e. until a several years after Pentecost, which we see in Acts 10.

45) I believe to keep in context, as well as perspective we need to understand what the prophets had been taught, who taught them, which shows Who they are to teach. One place we can find such is in Deuteronomy 6:7. The Bible proves itself, telling us these verses are intended for those only that made covenant with God.