Interpretation of John 6:35-40

[Van]

So those who do a work of believing in jesus in and by themselves are elcted on that basis by God? That its due to us accepting jesus, that we have that intrinsic means within us?

Yet again a Calvinism advocate misrepresents my view, so they are still missing the mark close to 100% of the time.

Does a person come to Jesus without being drawn by the Father? I said everyone who comes to Jesus has been drawn by the Father. So what do the Calvinism advocates do, they claim I am saying people come to Christ all on their own. Deception folks, systemic deception.

seem to base this on what we do, based upon how we decide to handle Jesus..

Here we see the Calvinism advocate deny Christ's words, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Do you see God knowing who will get saved beforehand, or does He wait to see what we will choose to do?

The Calvinist advocates on this BB cannot defend Calvinism, so they try to hide it under the umbrella of total omniscience. Constantly shifting the topic off Calvinism's false doctrines and onto something Arminians will defend, i.e. Skandelon.

Calvinism is defended by nothing sound, or compelling, but only by the tools of deception.

 

[zrs6v4]

Even though the historical context of that moment directly involves Jews being either chosen to come to Christ and taught by him personally (disciples) and the rest being hardened (sealed in their rebellious condition temporarily so as to accomplish a redemptive purpose through them); please understand that I too affirm the truth that NO MAN AT ANY TIME can 'come to Christ' without being drawn or enabled to come (how can they believe unless they hear?).

The 6:45 verse is probably taken primarily as a quotation from Jeremiah where Jeremiah speaks of God's New Covenant people. That includes Gentiles. We would differ here if you held to some kind of dual Covenant aspect of the New Covenant. Therefore, while you are correct in the context of John 6 I believe John 10 expands this electing of the sheep process as well as Romans 9:24 and also in Ephesians 1:4-11. So while I see a some purpose in the Jews being judicially hardened or set aside by God if you will, I do not see a change in God's electing purposes throughout Scripture. If the Jews are blind, unbelieving, hateful, and totally lost here then what makes the Gentiles so much more ready to believe. Is it their ignorance and the Jewish misused wisdom? I think the answer clearly rests in the sinful nature and God's grace towards the wicked. Although at this point we are forced to look outside the context for further input and our theological systems influence our interpretation I do not see reason to say the Jews are the only ones who need to be elected and taught by God. I realize you recognize the need for all people being drawn (and I do not know how you end up there) I know we see that differently. It seems like laying all purposes aside you are adhering to a type of election (similar to how Calvinism views election to all believers) specifically to the Jews in the context of the gospels? You just call it hardening and make it a limited time thing. I think there is some truth to what you say, but it simply seems inconsistent wit the rest of the flow we see in the New Testament to make that final conclusion. I hope to understand your view better.

I believe the MEANS God uses to draw/enable men to come to Christ is the (1) APPEAL of the GOSPEL, brought by the powerful (2)Holy Spirit, NEITHER of which had been sent at this point in history. Thus, NNE was being drawn by the TRUTH, except for a select few of Israel (remnant) who Christ was explaining things to in private. Even then they didn't get their real power and understanding until after the resurrection and Pentecost.

There must be more than words. I think there is more depth and power to the drawing of the Holy Spirit than Him simply pleaing through us? You might agree but I will need to be refreshed on this. I think it is evident words are not enough when you combine 6:37, 39, 44-45, 6:63-65 although the text may not answer this question in full for us. Sorry if I missed the point of your view here, I hope you see the Spirit's work as an internal work of man through the preaching of the Gospel even if you do not see it as an effectual work.

You are right, the Holy Spirit had not yet given, but I think it is evident that He was always at work throughout the Old Covenant. John makes it a point to reveal that He had not yet been given until after Jesus ascended. We see an explosion of His work in the when He came with full power after Jesus' work was done. Again just because we see a powerful work of the Spirit does not mean He was already beginning to gather believers together prior to the finished work of Christ. My view is that he Church officially started at Pentecost (some differ) but I think converts (sheep) were being gathered from and outside of Jerusalem in Jesus ministry. I believe this statement is one of our theological assumptions that happens: "Thus, NNE was being drawn by the TRUTH, except for a select few of Israel (remnant) who Christ was explaining things to in private"
Unless I misunderstood this quote I think it is evident that people were being drawn by truth and by Christ although their understanding was highly skewed. Nobody understood the death burial and resurrection message, but they were still being saved from both Jews and Gentiles. You seem to want to deny that the Spirit was giving eternal life to people in Jesus' ministry while offering it was only Jesus explaining things privately? I don't understand what you are doing here. If you could elaborate that would help me out.

Yes and no. As I just explained, I do think that Gentiles must also be drawn/enabled to come, just like the Jews. But what I'm pointing out is the reason most of the Jews at that time are NOT ENABLED. I'm arguing that the reason IS NOT because of an inborn nature (i.e. the claim of Total Inability), but a hardened nature (i.e. a result of continued rebellion and judicial hardening). Thus, the same thing that enables the Jews to come is the same thing that enables the Gentile to come: A clear and understandable Holy Spirit wrought appeal to be reconciled through Christ (The GOSPEL). That gospel was hid or veiled from most of Israel at that time, so much so that even the apostles didn't fully understand it until after the resurrection/pentecost, when the Holy Spirit explained it to them more fully (ref. Jn 16) and inspired them to discern it for the world in scripture.

You are right that the Jews are not enabled. Nobody is enabled unless they are drawn. Again I am a bit confused on why Jews and Gentiles need a different kind of drawing work? I assume you mean that God hardened Jews so they need an effectual work, while Gentiles only need a clear understanding given by the Spirit, but not an effectual work? I do not assume that passage onto only Jews and you do not either as you said. If you covered some questions I asked above at this point disrgard them, I read and respond while I read sometimes. I think what you are missing is the sinful nature that God is using. The Jews were swallowed by the sin nature and while the Scripture clearly reveals their issue of blindness is directly related to their state of sin (you may agree here). This same blindness we see in the Jews, from sin, is attributed to Gentiles in later writings Romans 3 and Ephesians 2. The process of saving does not differ or change as you say throughout the New Testament. What I mean here is that the John 6 process of the Jews (while yes they were hardened by their own sinful nature not God's preventing them to see clearly, another debate) is evident in Gentiles through Scripture. As you said in another debate, there is no difference between being completely hardened and blind or dead in sin, that hardness is or is directly related to deadness.

I do not deny the work of the Spirit after the Gospel in teaching the saints and reminding them of all Jesus taught and relating it to Old Testament (John 16). What I deny is the assumption that the Spirit was not teaching and bringing people to life through Jesus message in His ministry. The only difference is after the New Covenant began the Spirit began His predetermined ministry of great power: healing, saving, teaching, building up, and so on. It isn't that they were blinded of truth through Jesus ministry, but it just had not been revealed in God's revelation. Blind people and people with Spiritual eyes were still present and responding to God's revelation in Jesus ministry. I think that is a big difference. You will probably need to clarify on many points and I apologize ahead of time if I have assumed any of your position. If you can continue to explain your view through Scripture that would be helpful. I do follow much of your thought though with progression from the gospels to Acts.

So, the aspect of "Calvinism" seen in John 6 where Jesus has chosen 12, who are the only ones who stay around after his teaching, and the rest prove they aren't chosen by their abandonment is real, but its not a proof of the Calvinistic soteriology. It's only proof of God's elective purpose in ensuring redemption for the entire world by establishing his messengers (the foundation of His church). I hope that answers your question.

If we begin in John 6:35-40 we see the unchanging work of God that is consistent throughout the New Testament. No doubt the Jews grew highly sinful by God's allowance in Jesus time to a point that God used their hardness and blindness to bring about His ultimate purposes to save people of all nations. John 6 is in line with this hardening process, shows correct soteriology in God's work if also seen with John 10 where sheep are not only drawn from Jews (I didn't leave John's context to be fair here). One of our differences is in how we see sin. I see it in connection with many passages that explain it as a state of deadness, blindness, unwillingness, and so forth but that is another topic. John 6:66-71 does not clarify who stayed. It says many left, but specifically showed Jesus turning to the 12. It doesn't "clearly" say all left but the 12. In either case if there were 12 or 40 our debate does not change much unless one holds the view the elect here are only the disciples but that makes little sense.

I have to ask again out of curiosity. Forget Calvinism. Do you think the hardening of the Jews during Jesus ministry puts the Jews in a place where they need a work done within them that Calvinists try to apply to everyone? In other words do they need to be chosen, drawn/effectually called (in order to believe), believe/justified, and glorified in the end (security) as 6:35-40 (and 10:25-29) says? It seems that no matter which angle you look you would at least have to apply a Calvinistic soteriology at least to the Jews Jesus speaks of here.

 

[Skandelon]

The 6:45 verse is probably taken primarily as a quotation from Jeremiah where Jeremiah speaks of God's New Covenant people. That includes Gentiles.

Again, I'm not denying that all, including Gentiles, must be 'enabled.'

I believe John 10 expands this electing of the sheep process as well as Romans 9:24 and also in Ephesians 1:4-11.

I'd be happy to walk through those passages as well, but to keep the length under control maybe we can start new threads on those passages?

So while I see a some purpose in the Jews being judicially hardened or set aside by God if you will, I do not see a change in God's electing purposes throughout Scripture.

Nor do I. God elected Israel to be the nation through which redemption would be brought to the world. He reserved a remnant from Israel from the hardening process so that His purpose in electing them might stand. A select few were chosen from Israel for the noble purpose of making redemption known to the world and appealing for all God's enemies to be reconciled, while the rest were chosen for the ignoble purpose of remaining in their hardened rebellion (ref Rom 9).

If the Jews are blind, unbelieving, hateful, and totally lost here then what makes the Gentiles so much more ready to believe. Is it their ignorance and the Jewish misused wisdom?

Israel is hardened to God's revelation, while the Gentiles were ignorant of it. This is why Paul contrasts the Jews, who have 'become hardened' and the Gentiles "who will listen." (Acts 28:28) Ignorance can be fixed with the truth of the gospel, and even hardening can be overcome by envy (ref. Rom 11:14). So, God is merciful in both taking the gospel to the Gentiles and in hardening the Jews, because both problems (hardened heart and ignorance) are addressed when the gospel brings conversion to the Gentiles. Paul explains this in detail in Romans 11.

I do not see reason to say the Jews are the only ones who need to be elected and taught by God.

Nor would I. But you are right in that our view of election is different.

I hope to understand your view better.

I hold to a pretty basic "Arminian" view. In other words, it is nothing new, but many today are not real knowledgable about the doctrine of judicial hardening and how it relates to this discussion. I assure you that the "Arminians" of Calvin's day understood it well. I'm glad to answer questions as you have them and I'll attempt to be as clear as possible. It is important to understand the opponents perspective before you can really refute it fairly. So, even if you never agree with what I'm arguing it would still be good to fully understand it.

There must be more than words.

Here is a big issue between our views. I believe words wrought by God (sent and inspired by Him) are powerful. In Jn 6 Jesus said, "The words I speak to you are spirit and life." And those words are being hidden in parables lest the hearers repent (Mk 4; Matt 13) And there are dozens of texts that speak of the power of the WORD. Yes, some of that is in reference to the person of Christ, but one can't underestimate the words that testify to the Word and inspired by Him. In fact, Jesus said it will be by his words that all mankind is judged (Jn 12).

His words will NOT return void! They will accomplish their purpose. I believe the purpose of the gospel is to make an appeal for God's enemies to be reconciled to him. I think it ALWAYS accomplishes that purpose. That is not saying that I believe it always saves, but that it always 'makes the appeal' so as to grant/invite/enable whoever hears it to respond and thus be held to account for how they respond to God's appeal. Make sense?

I hope you see the Spirit's work as an internal work of man through the preaching of the Gospel even if you do not see it as an effectual work.

I do. And I don't believe the gospel is EVER preached apart from the work of the Spirit, because the Gospel IS a work of the Spirit. The gospel was inspired by the Spirit, it's preserved by the Spirit, it is carried by HS indwelled men, it is proclaimed by His Bride and I believe this truth, even when preached by false teachers, carries inherent HS Power because it is HIS WORDS. Make sense?

You are right, the Holy Spirit had not yet given, but I think it is evident that He was always at work throughout the Old Covenant.

Yet, there is a distinction of the HS being sent at Pentecost, is there not? We must ask what that distinction could be considering that we are told that the HS will come and convict the world of sin and give greater understanding and guidance...a most needed solution to a depravity problem, don't you think?

This is getting long so I'll pick up here in another post...

 

[Skandelon]

I believe this statement is one of our theological assumptions that happens: "Thus, NNE was being drawn by the TRUTH, except for a select few of Israel (remnant) who Christ was explaining things to in private"

Unless I misunderstood this quote I think it is evident that people were being drawn by truth and by Christ although their understanding was highly skewed. Nobody understood the death burial and resurrection message, but they were still being saved from both Jews and Gentiles. You seem to want to deny that the Spirit was giving eternal life to people in Jesus' ministry while offering it was only Jesus explaining things privately? I don't understand what you are doing here. If you could elaborate that would help me out.

But, Jesus wasn't entrusting himself to all those who were expressing faith in him (Jn 2:24); in fact when he began with difficult teachings such "eat my flesh" in John 6 they turned and left him leaving only the 12 by his side. He spoke in parables to keep men from repenting (why is this necessary if pre-regeneration is necessary?) He explains his mysterious teachings to his apostles, but the rest he provokes with hard sayings. And he tells those close to him to keep things secret. He has a purpose to accomplish and this requires most people remain in darkness and unsupportive of Him. They won't crucify him otherwise. He must provoke them and keep them confused with a 'spirit of stupor' "otherwise they might see, hear, understand and repent." Understand what I'm saying now?

You are right that the Jews are not enabled. Nobody is enabled unless they are drawn. Again I am a bit confused on why Jews and Gentiles need a different kind of drawing work?

They don't. They need the same thing, but the difference is that the Jews have become hardened by God's revelation over years and are now being judicially hardened (blinded by God in their already rebellious condition so they will reject Christ). They BOTH need the light, but the light is being hidden from Israel for a time. Make sense?

This same blindness we see in the Jews, from sin, is attributed to Gentiles in later writings Romans 3 and Ephesians 2.

As explained above, blindness from ignorance is fixed by knowledge, and blindness from "growing calloused" over time of rebellion can be fixed by envy and other provoking means. But, what confuses the issue is that God is actively and purposefully sealing most of Israel in their blindness (hardenness) for a time, in other words, He is 'cutting them off,' while he is 'grafting in the Gentiles.' (ref Rom 11)

I have to ask again out of curiosity. Forget Calvinism. Do you think the hardening of the Jews during Jesus ministry puts the Jews in a place where they need a work done within them that Calvinists try to apply to everyone?

Not exactly, no. Maybe some of my explanation above provides the needed clarity, but if not let me know.

In short, to come to Christ everyone (both Jew and Gentile) needs to know and understand the gospel first. Calvinists claim that is impossible for anyone unless regenerated.

I say it is possible for anyone to come to Christ who clearly hears and understands the gospel, which was impossible for the judicially hardened Jew for a time (but that even they may be saved once provoked to envy -Rm 11:14). As long as God was sending them a 'spirit of stupor' they could not really hear the gospel, thus the statement "he who has ears let him hear." But there is NO reason to suggest that those without the "spirit of stupor" (judicial hardening) were under the same restraint. The Gentiles, not being sent this 'spirit of stupor,' may see, hear, understand and repent.

The other confusing part is that God has hand selected a few messengers from among Israel for the noble purpose of taking the gospel to the world. That causes some to think this is proof God chooses individuals who hear their message to be saved. But, proof that God used outward effectual means to convince Jonah to go preach in Nineveh (storm/big fish), is not proof that God uses inward secret means to convince preselected audience members to respond in faith to his message (effectual calling). Make sense?

 

[quantumfaith]

I am no way near as theologically eloquent as most here. But I have a question, what was the purpose that God elected a man Abram, to become a "peculiar people of his own"? What was the purpose of setting apart the Hebrews? Missional wasn't it? To be a light and beacon to a pagan world?

 

[Greektim]

I am no way near as theologically eloquent as most here. But I have a question, what was the purpose that God elected a man Abram, to become a "peculiar people of his own"? What was the purpose of setting apart the Hebrews? Missional wasn't it? To be a light and beacon to a pagan world?

Absolutely! That was part of the gospel message... Gen 12:3 through Abraham all the nations would be blessed (Gal. 3:8). Election is not an end but a means to an end, the furtherance of the gospel and the way in which God's mission to redeem creation is to be accomplished.

(I finished C. Wright's book last week and started on the "other Wright's" NT and the People of God. We had that discussion about Mission of God didn't we?).

 

[quantumfaith]

Absolutely! That was part of the gospel message... Gen 12:3 through Abraham all the nations would be blessed (Gal. 3:8). Election is not an end but a means to an end, the furtherance of the gospel and the way in which God's mission to redeem creation is to be accomplished.

(I finished C. Wright's book last week and started on the "other Wright's" NT and the People of God. We had that discussion about Mission of God didn't we?).

Yes we did, does this missional aspect of the biblical narrative give you any tension in being of the "reformed" persuasion? I ask this, not as a "gotcha" thingy in any way, but "humbly".

 

[ituttut]

Most of what you said did not personally deal with the text line by line. I have no idea how you arrive at your contextual understanding above. In my mind that is an awkward understanding of Jesus' words.

Thanks for the reply zrs6v4. You are very kind with the word "awkward". Most keep in store for those of "the Pauline gospel to the Gentile" the word heretic.

I evidently misunderstood what you were wanting for discussion purposes as it looked as though you wished to have 1-4 that was listed to be up for discussion. I'll comment on John 6:35-45 as shown in your post. I do not claim to answer from Cal., or Arm. positions, but from the position of a dispensational foundation as this is what I see to be shown to us in His Word (Ephesians 1:25 and others). I am not saying others have not looked into this matter, only foreign to most, for it does not neat the standard of orthodoxy of the Catholic, or the various denominations.

John 6:35 To whom is Jesus speaking. He was speaking only to those we see in verse in verse 33. This indicates all other peoples are excluded at this time.

36) The people of Israel saw Him, and didn't believe Him. This is heart breaking.

37) Those people of Israel that His Father gave to Him will not be cast out of His Kingdom (Luke 22:28-29). Each one of the Gospels informs us as to whom He is interested in while He was on this earth.

38) God chose Himself a people, and the Word of God became flesh. Te Word of God, Jesus who is the Son of God will do the will of God that sent Him (I Samuel 9:27; John 1:14). Jesus accomplished the will of God. But as I posted before, through Him, Jesus Christ was not available as Jesus lived.

39) At the last day, Jesus will raise up those of Israel, those that His Father gave to Him. Confirms verse 37.

40) He reiterates it is the will of God His Father, for those that see Him (Jesus), believing ON Him, will arise at the last day, having everlasting life.

41) These are identified as Jews narrowing to those of Israel that are of Judah, and Benjamin. Those Jews of Jerusalem murmured at Him.

42) These of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37) at this time are no different than their fathers.

43) Jesus says, quit your murmuring and listen to me.

44) As Jesus lived as man on this earth, and before ascending on High to take His place beside HisFarther, sitting on the Fathers right hand side, He tells us in His own words, as reported by John - "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Should we not take notice here to what Jesus says in Matthew 15:23-24? This will answer to whom His Father sent Him. Other than a proselyte, we cannot find in scripture a Gentile being saved, i.e. until a several years after Pentecost, which we see in Acts 10.

45) I believe to keep in context, as well as perspective we need to understand what the prophets had been taught, who taught them, which shows Who they are to teach. One place we can find such is in Deuteronomy 6:7. The Bible proves itself, telling us these verses are intended for those only that made covenant with God.