TULIP of Scripture

[Van]

Two Views of the TULIP

The TULIP is a weed in the field of scriptural truth, deceiving with its appeal to worldly values.

The TULIP should be a beautiful flower of God, spreading the points of its pedals above the bedrock of scripture from which it arose.

“T” stands for Total Depravity; mankind is unable to respond to the gospel unless his core fallen character is altered by the direct supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit.

“T” should stand for Totally in Adam; totally separated by our unholy nature, from God.

“U” stands for Unconditional Election; we were saved or damned from eternity past for all eternity without regard for our faith in Christ, our faith was given to us because of God’s choice, we are saved by election and not through faith.

“U” should stand for Unlimited Redemption; God reconciled all of fallen mankind to Himself by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as propitiation for the sin of mankind.

“L” stands for Limited Atonement; Christ died only for the preselected elect, chosen as specific foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world, the opportunity for the salvation of those not preselected is non existent.

“L” should stand for Limited Atonement: All mankind has been reconciled to God, but not all men have received the reconciliation. We are individually set apart, chosen, elected and made “at one with God” when we are spiritually baptized into Christ based on God accepting our faith in Christ as sufficient for His purpose.

“I” stands for Irresistible Grace; the preselected elect are enabled and compelled to respond affirmatively to the gospel, by the direct supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit that both overcomes the preexisting Total Depravity and gives the gift of faith so that we think we trusted in Christ when in fact God did it all.

“I” should stand for In Christ; when we are spiritually baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit, we are converted, given a new heart with our faith hard wired into our soul, and with a clear conscience such that we arise from the baptism into Christ’s death a new creature in Christ, anointed for good works and then indwelt with the Holy Spirit as a helper and pledge to an inheritance of Eternal life.

“P” stands for Perseverance of the Saints; those individually chosen before the foundation of the world are compelled by Irresistible Grace to remain faithful to God, such that once a person is saved, they will never fall away from their inheritance of eternal life.

“P” should stand for Perseverance of the Saints; those set apart and converted have their faith protected by God such that will always love Jesus, and anyone who says they were saved but no longer loves Jesus was never saved. But once a person is saved, is “In Christ” nothing can snatch him or her out of God’s hand, and because their faith is protected, they would never want to leave the faith. Once saved, always saved.

It is time to put aside the TULIP of Calvinism and proclaim the TULIP of Scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

Two Views of the TULIP

The TULIP is a weed in the field of scriptural truth, deceiving with its appeal to worldly values.

The TULIP should be a beautiful flower of God, spreading the points of its pedals above the bedrock of scripture from which it arose.

“T” stands for Total Depravity; mankind is unable to respond to the gospel unless his core fallen character is altered by the direct supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit.

“T” should stand for Totally in Adam; totally separated by our unholy nature, from God.

The seperation as a direct result of the fall of Adam. the cause/basis of it, as we have now sinful natures, that willfully keep rejecting Christ!

“U” stands for Unconditional Election; we were saved or damned from eternity past for all eternity without regard for our faith in Christ, our faith was given to us because of God’s choice, we are saved by election and not through faith.

“U” should stand for Unlimited Redemption; God reconciled all of fallen mankind to Himse

lf by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as propitiation for the sin of mankind.

That would lead to Universalism, best to see it as being while the death of Christ was enough to provide for the salvation of All, ONLY those whom He effectually applies the benfits of that sacriface towards shall be saved

“L” stands for Limited Atonement; Christ died only for the preselected elect, chosen as specific foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world, the opportunity for the salvation of those not preselected is non existent.

“L” should stand for Limited Atonement: All mankind has been reconciled to God, but not all men have received the reconciliation. We are individually set apart, chosen, elected and made “at one with God” when we are spiritually baptized into Christ based on God accepting our faith in Christ as sufficient for His purpose.

salvation not of ourselves, it is the work of God in us, through us, and He will complete that which he started in us until that day!

“I” stands for Irresistible Grace; the preselected elect are enabled and compelled to respond affirmatively to the gospel, by the direct supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit that both overcomes the preexisting Total Depravity and gives the gift of faith so that we think we trusted in Christ when in fact God did it all.

“I” should stand for In Christ; when we are spiritually baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit, we are converted, given a new heart with our faith hard wired into our soul, and with a clear conscience such that we arise from the baptism into Christ’s death a new creature in Christ, anointed for good works and then indwelt with the Holy Spirit as a helper and pledge to an inheritance of Eternal life.

ALL thosw whom the father has given to jesus shall be kept and raised in the resuurection unto glorifed bodies at Second Coming of Christ

“P” stands for Perseverance of the Saints; those individually chosen before the foundation of the world are compelled by Irresistible Grace to remain faithful to God, such that once a person is saved, they will never fall away from their inheritance of eternal life.

“P” should stand for Perseverance of the Saints; those set apart and converted have their faith protected by God such that will always love Jesus, and anyone who says they were saved but no longer loves Jesus was never saved. But once a person is saved, is “In Christ” nothing can snatch him or her out of God’s hand, and because their faith is protected, they would never want to leave the faith. Once saved, always saved.

All that the father has given unto me shall be kept, for they are all in my fathers and mine hand, and NOTHING can take them out of our hands

It is time to put aside the TULIP of Calvinism and proclaim the TULIP of Scripture.

Just as long as we make sure to edit it and keep it according to the scriptures. and not our own man made theology!

 

[jbh28]

Just as long as we make sure to edit it and keep it according to the scriptures. and not our own man made theology!

Were you going to say anything else about it, or just this one comment! Or maybe you need to learn the quote feature.
Use brackets []instead of parentheses()

(quote=van)bla bla bla bla(/quote)

then your bla bla bla!

If you want to continute what Van had to say, then pu
(quote=van)bla bla bla part 2(/quote)

then your bla bla bla!

 

[Robert Snow]

Were you going to say anything else about it, or just this one comment! Or maybe you need to learn the quote feature.
Use brackets []instead of parentheses()

(quote=van)bla bla bla bla(/quote)

then your bla bla bla!

If you want to continute what Van had to say, then pu
(quote=van)bla bla bla part 2(/quote)

then your bla bla bla!

Are you upset at what Van said, or how he said it?

It seems obvious that the Calvinists here are more interested in defending Calvinism rather than the truth of the bible.

 

[jbh28]

Are you upset at what Van said, or how he said it?

It seems obvious that the Calvinists here are more interested in defending Calvinism rather than the truth of the bible[sic].

I didn't say anything about what Van said.

I didn't say anything about Calvinism, but even if I did, your comment is unnecessary. Van is the one that started this thread, not me. I haven't had a chance to respond and havn't decided if I'm even going to or not. I was just telling Jesusfan to fix his post so it could be read.

 

[convicted1]

Oh no, not again!!! Now where in the world did I put that weed killer.....:laugh: j/k

 

[Van]

Well Jbh28, I do appreciate your effort to get Jesusfan to at least format his posts in a manner that does not scramble authorship.

His first statement actually simply restates what I said, but posted as if it differed. Here is what Jesusfan posted: The seperation as a direct result of the fall of Adam. the cause/basis of it, as we have now sinful natures, that willfully keep rejecting Christ!

So translating what he said: "The separation is a direct result of the fall of Adam. The cause/basis of the separation is we now have sinful natures that willfully keep rejecting Christ."

Next he makes the adsurd and irrational charge of universalism even though I said only those who receive the reconciliation by God individually electing them are saved.

Next Jesusfan makes a totally non-germane statement, sort of like I say Calvinism is fiction, and he responds some Calvinists like apple pie. Fiddlesticks.

And he follows this up with a second non-germane comment after my revision of the meaning of the "I" of TULIP.

And finally Jesusfan unintentionally makes a correct statement, we should abandon the man-made doctrine of Calvinism and edit it to reform its doctrine so it meshes with what the Bible actually says and teaches.

 

[Robert Snow]

I didn't say anything about what Van said.

I didn't say anything about Calvinism, but even if I did, your comment is unnecessary. Van is the one that started this thread, not me. I haven't had a chance to respond and havn't decided if I'm even going to or not. I was just telling Jesusfan to fix his post so it could be read.

Touchy, touchy!

 

[Van]

“T” should stand for Totally in Adam; totally separated by our unholy nature, from God.

Can we improve this: How about "Totally in Adam" totally corrupted with our "old man" (Adamic) nature and totally separated from God and thereore dead in our sinful state in Adam.

 

[Tom Butler]

A few years ago, Dr. Timothy George proposed a substitute for TULIP.

In his book Amazing Grace: God's Initiative, Our Response, he proposed ROSES.

Radical Depravity
Overcoming Grace
Sovereign Election
Eternal Life
Singular Redemption

quantumfaith started a thread on ROSES a year ago, and given this discussion, it's worth revisiting.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=68566

 

[convicted1]

A few years ago, Dr. Timothy George proposed a substitute for TULIP.

In his book Amazing Grace: God's Initiative, Our Response, he proposed ROSES.

Radical Depravity
Overcoming Grace
Sovereign Election
Eternal Life
Singular Redemption

quantumfaith started a thread on ROSES a year ago, and given this discussion, it's worth revisiting.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=68566

T Totally lost outside of Jesus
H Helpless without election
O Obedient to the Father, even unto death
R Raised to life via the blood
N Needed Christ to die for me
S Saved by Grace through faith

How 'bout them apples, Brother Tom?

 

[jbh28]

Can't we all just get along....

:laugh:

 

[convicted1]

Knowing you, I have a feeling that there is a bee in there, somewhere!!

:love2: :tongue:

 

[Van]

Apparently everyone, including the Calvinists trying to change the subject, agreed with the rewrite of "Totally in Adam."

"Totally in Adam" totally corrupted with our "old man" (Adamic) nature and totally separated from God and therefore dead in our sinful state in Adam.

 

[Winman]

I didn't say anything about what Van said.

I didn't say anything about Calvinism, but even if I did, your comment is unnecessary. Van is the one that started this thread, not me. I haven't had a chance to respond and havn't decided if I'm even going to or not. I was just telling Jesusfan to fix his post so it could be read.

For once I am in total agreement with JBH. I find JesusFan's posts very annoying because he doesn't understand how to quote.

Here it is once again JF;

To quote someone, start with a "start quote". This is the word QUOTE enclosed in brackets [] [QU*TE]

Now include that part of the poster's post you wish to quote.

Now you place an "end quote". Start with a bracket [ then a backslash / then write QUOTE then another bracket ] [/QU*TE]

Thus,

[QU*TE]
JesusFan, learn the quote function!
[/QU*TE]

Now, write QUOTE above, not QU*TE, I had to substitute a * for the O to show you.

This will come out like this;

JesusFan, learn the quote function!

Now write your response.

If you want to quote another portion of the previous poster's post, again enlose that part of the conversation within a "start quote" and an "end quote"

Then respond to this quote.

If you want folks to take you seriously, LEARN THE QUOTE FUNCTION!

 

[Van]

Exhibit A in the scriptural support for the Revised "T" , Romans 6:6

BIBLE STUDY
ROMANS 6:6

Romans 6:6 reads “Knowing this that our old man was crucified with [him] in order that the body of the sin might be destroyed such that sin no longer is enslaving us.” Translations vary and try to present the message more clearly, but the above is quite close to Young’s Literal Translation and the KJV.

Knowing this…

Knowing what? The question is answered in the next part of the verse.

That our old man was crucified with [him]…

The Greek word translated “old” means not only old but well worn indicating both a degraded state and a state in which we are comfortable, otherwise it would not be well worn. The word translated “man” literally means man face, or how we are distinguished from others, either plant or animal or divine. In our fallen state we are (1) separated from God, and (2) corrupted with a predisposition to sin, thus we are comfortable with sin.

In order that the body of sin might be destroyed…

Paul is using body in the sense of something that casts a shadow over us. Being “in Adam” means being separated from God and corrupted such that we are comfortable with sin. This shadow is destroyed when we are spiritually baptized into Christ and indwelt with the convicting Holy Spirit.

“Such that sin no longer is enslaving us….

Since we are already in Christ and no longer in Adam, that legacy would not be continuing to enslave us. Therefore Paul is referring to the fact that once in Christ, our missing the mark and occasionally sinning does not pile up wrath against us, hence unlike Marley’s Ghost, we are free from the chains of the past and no longer adding to the chains of our former slavery to sin.

Here is a contextual look at the verse from the ESV.

5For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His. 6We know that our old man was crucified with [Him] in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free from sin.

 

[jbh28]

Knowing you, I have a feeling that there is a bee in there, somewhere!!

:love2: :tongue:

oh, you spoiled the fun!

 

[convicted1]

oh, you spoiled the fun!

To quote the late John Belushi on a SNL skit, "What do you expect, the sting?"

 

[JesusFan]

Well Jbh28, I do appreciate your effort to get Jesusfan to at least format his posts in a manner that does not scramble authorship.

His first statement actually simply restates what I said, but posted as if it differed. Here is what Jesusfan posted: The seperation as a direct result of the fall of Adam. the cause/basis of it, as we have now sinful natures, that willfully keep rejecting Christ!

The direct cause of the seoperation is due to us now being spiritually dead in our sins, as a result of being "in Adam!"

So translating what he said: "The separation is a direct result of the fall of Adam. The cause/basis of the separation is we now have sinful natures that willfully keep rejecting Christ."

Next he makes the adsurd and irrational charge of universalism even though I said only those who receive the reconciliation by God individually electing them are saved.

YOU said that God had reconciled ALL people back to Himself via the Cross, would that mean that Jesus died and atoned/paid for all peoples, but some stay lost and go to hell even though Jesus died for their reconcilation, so IF they are reconciled, sins atoned for, why get lost? Universalism at least hinted at, eh?

Next Jesusfan makes a totally non-germane statement, sort of like I say Calvinism is fiction, and he responds some Calvinists like apple pie. Fiddlesticks.

And he follows this up with a second non-germane comment after my revision of the meaning of the "I" of TULIP.

You are the one that states learned men like a calvin/Berkhof/Erickson/Hodge/scheafer etc are ALL misunderstanding distorting the Bible, failing to see they are just taking the full view on the text to get their theologies!

And finally Jesusfan unintentionally makes a correct statement, we should abandon the man-made doctrine of Calvinism and edit it to reform its doctrine so it meshes with what the Bible actually says and teaches.

actually, was referencing that your theology would be OK, after we edited it and made it line up with what the Bible actually teaches!

hopefully, we will be able to at least establish from this that IF we consider and look at the totality of the scriptures, that DoG would seem to be the best 'fit" to explain how it all works together... Not perfect/only, but the best!

 

[jbh28]

hopefully, we will be able to at least establish from this that IF we consider and look at the totality of the scriptures, that DoG would seem to be the best 'fit" to explain how it all works together... Not perfect/only, but the best!

AGAIN?!?! Can you please learn the quote feature!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It should look like this....

hopefully, we will be able to at least establish from this that IF we consider and look at the totality

breaking to make a comment

of the scriptures, that DoG would seem to be the best 'fit" to explain how it all works together... Not perfect/only, but the best!

END THE QUOTE OF THE PERSON YOU ARE QUOTING TO MAKE A COMMENT AND THEN START IT AGAIN WHEN YOU ARE QUOTING THEM AGAIN!

Your comments should be OUTSIDE the quotes. You are putting extra quote marks inside the other quote.