TULIP of Scripture

Van, you have taken JesusFan out of context. I showed it. Just fess up instead of trying to say I'm lying. You twice(3 times now) quoted and conveniently left off a portion of his post.

 

No... you sound like an angry bible-thumpin' fundamentalist who has figured out so dogmatically what the Bible says that everyone else dissenting must be a heretic. So glad I left this movement.

 

What a bold statement to make and will be reported. you whine about us attacking you(which we don't) but now you say that "100% of the Calvinists use deception." That's an outright lie. You took JesusFan out of context by removing part of his sentance. The Bible says that "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

What you are attempting to do is say that Calvinists deny the Scripture by saying we don't believe that Jesus is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world. The difference is we don't interpret it the same way you do which Jesus fan CLEARLY identified in his sentence. You took that portion out and now say we are using deception. That's false. Repent.

Pot calling the kettle black comes to mind. Repent!

 

:thumbs::thumbs:

 

Both JesusFan and jbh28 have given what they believe to be the teaching of the form of calvinism that they actually believe. Just because there are other forms of calvinism that would deny what they said does not mean they are being deceptive. Here we see the difficulty of ascribing specific beliefs to a group of people base on a one-word definition, even one that they might embrace. (Example: It would do me no good to accuse an elder-led Baptist church of being deceptive by denying congregational rule. They simply do not believe that particular part of what most other baptists believe.)

Also, if a Calvinist said They believe in Limited Atonement, and then says they believe Jesus died for the whole world; You should interact with their statement to determine how they can believe both, rather than saying that they are being deceptive.

Sometimes, we are simply trying to decipher what you actually believe, and so those of us who try to summarize your beliefs in our debates with you are simply doing out best to put what you said in terms that make sense to us. (you, and everyone else on this board does the same thing). Sometime we probably misrepresent each other, in which case we should be open to you clarifying yourself, and in which case we should be given the benefit of the doubt that we were simply misunderstood.

This is simply not true, other than in the sense that every person on earth had deceptive tendancies. Being Calvinistic does not increase these.

If you'll read my post, I did not charge YOU with treating others as calvninist treat you. I said that "It is both sides that resort to these tactics, not just Calvinists."

I did not see the evidence for your charge in your immediate post. Looking back, I can see how you might have come to that conclusion, but I still don't believe either of them was posting falsehoods, (see earlier paragraph), but were rather posting what THEIR version of calvinism is.

I am not trying to misrepresent you, I just don't understand why you say some of the things you say. This is why we need grace here, rather than immediate attacks. My intention with my post was not to attack you, but to make sure Jbh28 was not attacked without clear substantiation.

I allow Jesusfan to say this because it is what he understands the "L" of Tulip to mean. You may think he misunderstands calvinism, but that's not a reason to charge him with deception.

I'm sure there are Calvinist on this board with more integrity than me.

 

One more thing: Isn't it ironic that all of this came about because JesusFan's view of Atonement actually lines up more with your view than it does with calvinism? Should not you be rejoicing that JesusFan has obviously not bought in to to the full "L" of calvinism?

 

You took him out of context. I've demonstrated it. You lack the integrity to fess up. You have been called out by multiple people now. He said it was "for the whole world in the sense..." You left out "in the sense" part. I've done no "falsehood."

Van:

What Jesusfan Actually said.

So don't keep trying to say I'm posting falsehoods. Everyone else knows that's not true. Just fess up that you made a mistake instead of attacking the character of other people on here without merit.

oh, and if you say the bolded part is not the "L" it's from the cannons of dort.

"While the death of Christ is abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world, its saving efficacy is limited to the elect."
"The death of the Son of God is the only and most perfect sacrifice and satisfaction for sin, and is of infinite worth and value, abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world."

 

I'm sure he would give you this answer,

Pretty clear from the Bible that Jesus died as a propitiation of the sins of the entire World, in the sense that it had infinite worth, but that ONLY those who come to Him for their sins to be covered and atoned for by the Cross are the saved by it, and those are the ones chosen and elect out beforehand by God!

You interpret it differently.

 

Post 33, disagreed with my view, not that JesusFan had misrepresented the "L".
Post 34 had nothing but an agreement for post 34
Post 35 was you.

I've posted from Calvinistic resources showing that his view is in line with Calvinism. Do all Calvinists agree? Probably not just like not all Baptist agree on all points. JesusFan said he agreed with the I John 2 passage and explained how he interpreted it. You misrepresented his view. I called you out on it and instead of fessing up, you have resorted to personal attacks.

now you are calling me a false teacher. What gives? you whine about people "attacking" you but you today are in all attack mode.

I'm sure there is more than just 3 that disagree with me. That's fine. That's not the point.

Of course not. JesusFan quoted Scripture and then explained it on how he interprets it.

Stop whining and just fess up. Stop saying false things about me.

1. Deceptive
2. False teacher

both are against forum rules.

 

Limited Atonement

http://www.theopedia.com/Definite_atonement

 

Let me just say a few thoughts. I've misrepresented people before. I've been wrong before, in fact many times. I've misspoken. I've been angry and said things that are inappropriate to others. When that's pointed out to me, I do my best to fix it. I have no reason to misrepresent anyone here.

If someone has misrepresented you, let them know. There is no need to say statements like "100% of Calvinists use deception" and other like comments. That' very unchristlike.

Now, I've made bad statements before, so I'm not perfect. Example, in post 26 of this thread, I said something negative about Van. I had misrepresented what he had said. I took his statement and in my head added a word to change what he said. I went back later and read it and noticed my error. So I corrected it.


Let's try to keep this at a Christlike level.

 

calvinism has stated that in the death of Christ, the propiation/provision was made by God to have the entire World reconciled back to Him, in that the work of Christ is unlimited/infinite in worth as he is God in human form dying for sins, but that the ones to receive this Grace are ONLY the one who cam meet the requirement of placing their faith in Christ!

Atonement can cover all those who will come to the Saviour , its just due to our sinful natures, cannot come to Christ UNLESS enabled to do such by God, and that means that you are one of the redemmed/elect of God!

 

But that takes away my only argument