TULIP of Scripture

[Van]

Hi 12 strings,

Van, you have shifted the discussion by accusing someone of posting falsehood without showing what the falsehood actually was.

Does it not cross you mind, Van, that there might be Calvinists who are not intentional deceivers, but simply disagree with you?

Why must you always accuse those who disagree with you of being deceptive, or of not dealing with arguments. It is both sides that resort to these tactics, not just Calvinists.

Is it not possible in your mind that there might be some Calvinists on this board who are not trying to deceive people into accepting Calvinism, but actually believe that it is what the bible teaches?

I showed what the falsehood was, according to Calvinism Jesus did not die as the propitiation for the whole world, only for the elect. So your first statement is a falsehood too.

Here is what I said: The meaning of limited atonement is that it is limited in scope, Christ dying only for the supposedly preselected elect. Jesusfan said Christ provided propitiation for the whole world. That is not Calvinism. Calvinism says Christ died for the elect only and not for all mankind. Calvinists must misrepresent their doctrine in order to offer any sort of biblical defense. It is as if Jesusfan has no concept of the Penal Substitution theory of Atonement, where Christ died only for the sins of the elect and providing absolutely no propitiation for the non-elect.

Then Jbh28 posts that Jesusfan had it right. Calvinism must be defended by deception or else it becomes obvious it is unbiblical.

No, I cannot accept that the constant misrepresentation of my views, like you saying I did not address the actual falsehood, could be innocent. 100% of the Calvinists use deception.

Next, you charge me with treating others like the Calvinists treat me. When I make a charge, I always, 100% of the time explain the evidence for the charge.

I am quite sure some on this board are deceived, but when called to defend their views, they either fall silent or resort in tactics such as misrepresentation and ad hominems.

If you were a Calvinist with integrity, something I believe you think you are, why would you allow Jesusfan to say Jesus died as the propitiation for the whole world, when the L of the Tulip says Jesus died for the sins of the elect only, otherwise when the non-elect go to hell their sins would be punished twice, once upon Christ and once upon them.

Yet you remained silent.

See why I think the way I do.

 

[Van]

Two Views of the TULIP, revised

The TULIP is a weed in the field of scriptural truth, deceiving with its appeal to worldly values.

The TULIP should be a beautiful flower of God, spreading the points of its pedals above the bedrock of scripture from which it arose.

“T” stands for Total Depravity; mankind is unable to respond to the gospel unless his core fallen character is altered by the direct supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit.

"T" should stand for"Totally in Adam" totally corrupted with our "old man" (Adamic) nature and totally separated from God and therefore dead in our sinful state in Adam.

“U” stands for Unconditional Election; we were saved or damned from eternity past for all eternity without regard for our faith in Christ, our faith was given to us because of God’s choice, we are saved by election and not through faith.

The "U" should stand for Unlimited Reconciliation; God is reconciling mankind to Himself, one person at a time, by first accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, but then causing those whose faith He credits as righteousness to be placed spiritually in Christ and receive the reconciliation. Therefore, we who are in Christ, beg the lost as ambassadors of Christ, "be reconciled to Christ."

“L” stands for Limited Atonement; Christ died only for the preselected elect, chosen as specific foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world, the opportunity for the salvation of those not preselected is non existent.

"L" should stand for Limited Atonement: God has provided reconciliation for all mankind, but not all men have received the reconciliation. When we are individually chosen and set apart based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, we are placed spiritually in Christ by God, being united with Christ and made alive, but this atonement or "at one ment" is limited to those God puts spiritually in Christ.

“I” stands for Irresistible Grace; the preselected elect are enabled and compelled to respond affirmatively to the gospel, by the direct supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit that both overcomes the preexisting Total Depravity and gives the gift of faith so that we think we trusted in Christ when in fact God did it all.

“I” should stand for In Christ; when we are spiritually baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit, we are converted, given a new heart with our faith hard wired into our soul, and with a clear conscience such that we arise from the baptism into Christ’s death a new creature in Christ, anointed for good works and then indwelt with the Holy Spirit as a helper and pledge to an inheritance of Eternal life.

“P” stands for Perseverance of the Saints; those individually chosen before the foundation of the world are compelled by Irresistible Grace to remain faithful to God, such that once a person is saved, they will never fall away from their inheritance of eternal life.

“P” should stand for Perseverance of the Saints; those set apart and converted have their faith protected by God such that will always love Jesus, and anyone who says they were saved but no longer loves Jesus was never saved. But once a person is saved, is “In Christ” nothing can snatch him or her out of God’s hand, and because their faith is protected, they would never want to leave the faith. Once saved, always saved.

It is time to return to topic and put aside the TULIP of Calvinism and proclaim the TULIP of Scripture.

 

[jbh28]

According to Calvinism, Jesus did not die as a propitiation of the entire world, He died for the elect only. QED His death did not have infinite worth for the non-elect of the world, it had zero worth, hence Calvinism's limited atonement.

Folks, they can run but they cannot hide. They post falsehood after falsehood to hide their false doctrines. Note the effort to shift discuss from their false doctrines and toward a discussion of whether someone was quoted correctly. Go figure.

Van, you have taken JesusFan out of context. I showed it. Just fess up instead of trying to say I'm lying. You twice(3 times now) quoted and conveniently left off a portion of his post.

 

[Greektim]

I showed what the falsehood was, according to Calvinism Jesus did not die as the propitiation for the whole world, only for the elect. So your first statement is a falsehood too.

Here is what I said: The meaning of limited atonement is that it is limited in scope, Christ dying only for the supposedly preselected elect. Jesusfan said Christ provided propitiation for the whole world. That is not Calvinism. Calvinism says Christ died for the elect only and not for all mankind. Calvinists must misrepresent their doctrine in order to offer any sort of biblical defense. It is as if Jesusfan has no concept of the Penal Substitution theory of Atonement, where Christ died only for the sins of the elect and providing absolutely no propitiation for the non-elect.

Then Jbh28 posts that Jesusfan had it right. Calvinism must be defended by deception or else it becomes obvious it is unbiblical.

No, I cannot accept that the constant misrepresentation of my views, like you saying I did not address the actual falsehood, could be innocent. 100% of the Calvinists use deception.

Next, you charge me with treating others like the Calvinists treat me. When I make a charge, I always, 100% of the time explain the evidence for the charge.

I am quite sure some on this board are deceived, but when called to defend their views, they either fall silent or resort in tactics such as misrepresentation and ad hominems.

If you were a Calvinist with integrity, something I believe you think you are, why would you allow Jesusfan to say Jesus died as the propitiation for the whole world, when the L of the Tulip says Jesus died for the sins of the elect only, otherwise when the non-elect go to hell their sins would be punished twice, once upon Christ and once upon them.

Yet you remained silent.

See why I think the way I do.

No... you sound like an angry bible-thumpin' fundamentalist who has figured out so dogmatically what the Bible says that everyone else dissenting must be a heretic. So glad I left this movement.

 

[jbh28]

I showed what the falsehood was, according to Calvinism Jesus did not die as the propitiation for the whole world, only for the elect. So your first statement is a falsehood too.

Then Jbh28 posts that Jesusfan had it right. Calvinism must be defended by deception or else it becomes obvious it is unbiblical. [/B]

No, I cannot accept that the constant misrepresentation of my views, like you saying I did not address the actual falsehood, could be innocent. 100% of the Calvinists use deception.

What a bold statement to make and will be reported. you whine about us attacking you(which we don't) but now you say that "100% of the Calvinists use deception." That's an outright lie. You took JesusFan out of context by removing part of his sentance. The Bible says that "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

What you are attempting to do is say that Calvinists deny the Scripture by saying we don't believe that Jesus is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world. The difference is we don't interpret it the same way you do which Jesus fan CLEARLY identified in his sentence. You took that portion out and now say we are using deception. That's false. Repent.

Next, you charge me with treating others like the Calvinists treat me. When I make a charge, I always, 100% of the time explain the evidence for the charge.

I am quite sure some on this board are deceived, but when called to defend their views, they either fall silent or resort in tactics such as misrepresentation and ad hominems.

If you were a Calvinist with integrity, something I believe you think you are, why would you allow Jesusfan to say Jesus died as the propitiation for the whole world, when the L of the Tulip says Jesus died for the sins of the elect only, otherwise when the non-elect go to hell their sins would be punished twice, once upon Christ and once upon them.

Yet you remained silent.

See why I think the way I do.

Pot calling the kettle black comes to mind. Repent!

 

[jbh28]

Van, you have shifted the discussion by accusing someone of posting falsehood without showing what the falsehood actually was.

Does it not cross you mind, Van, that there might be Calvinists who are not intentional deceivers, but simply disagree with you?

Why must you always accuse those who disagree with you of being deceptive, or of not dealing with arguments. It is both sides that resort to these tactics, not just Calvinists.

Is it not possible in your mind that there might be some Calvinists on this board who are not trying to deceive people into accepting Calvinism, but actually believe that it is what the bible teaches?

:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Van]

Folks, notice how the Calvinists, acting in unison, seek to derail the thread and "report" me for telling the truth.

That is all they have.

Calvinism L says Jesus did not provide the propitiation for the whole world, only for the elect. So Jesusfan misrepresented Calvinism's "L" This is not taking Jesusfan out of context, so yet another falsehood by Jbh28.

 

[12strings]

I showed what the falsehood was, according to Calvinism Jesus did not die as the propitiation for the whole world, only for the elect. So your first statement is a falsehood too.

Here is what I said: The meaning of limited atonement is that it is limited in scope, Christ dying only for the supposedly preselected elect. Jesusfan said Christ provided propitiation for the whole world. That is not Calvinism. Calvinism says Christ died for the elect only and not for all mankind. Calvinists must misrepresent their doctrine in order to offer any sort of biblical defense. It is as if Jesusfan has no concept of the Penal Substitution theory of Atonement, where Christ died only for the sins of the elect and providing absolutely no propitiation for the non-elect.

Then Jbh28 posts that Jesusfan had it right. Calvinism must be defended by deception or else it becomes obvious it is unbiblical.

Both JesusFan and jbh28 have given what they believe to be the teaching of the form of calvinism that they actually believe. Just because there are other forms of calvinism that would deny what they said does not mean they are being deceptive. Here we see the difficulty of ascribing specific beliefs to a group of people base on a one-word definition, even one that they might embrace. (Example: It would do me no good to accuse an elder-led Baptist church of being deceptive by denying congregational rule. They simply do not believe that particular part of what most other baptists believe.)

Also, if a Calvinist said They believe in Limited Atonement, and then says they believe Jesus died for the whole world; You should interact with their statement to determine how they can believe both, rather than saying that they are being deceptive.

No, I cannot accept that the constant misrepresentation of my views, like you saying I did not address the actual falsehood, could be innocent.

Sometimes, we are simply trying to decipher what you actually believe, and so those of us who try to summarize your beliefs in our debates with you are simply doing out best to put what you said in terms that make sense to us. (you, and everyone else on this board does the same thing). Sometime we probably misrepresent each other, in which case we should be open to you clarifying yourself, and in which case we should be given the benefit of the doubt that we were simply misunderstood.

100% of the Calvinists use deception.

This is simply not true, other than in the sense that every person on earth had deceptive tendancies. Being Calvinistic does not increase these.

Next, you charge me with treating others like the Calvinists treat me. When I make a charge, I always, 100% of the time explain the evidence for the charge.

If you'll read my post, I did not charge YOU with treating others as calvninist treat you. I said that "It is both sides that resort to these tactics, not just Calvinists."

I did not see the evidence for your charge in your immediate post. Looking back, I can see how you might have come to that conclusion, but I still don't believe either of them was posting falsehoods, (see earlier paragraph), but were rather posting what THEIR version of calvinism is.

I am quite sure some on this board are deceived, but when called to defend their views, they either fall silent or resort in tactics such as misrepresentation and ad hominems.

I am not trying to misrepresent you, I just don't understand why you say some of the things you say. This is why we need grace here, rather than immediate attacks. My intention with my post was not to attack you, but to make sure Jbh28 was not attacked without clear substantiation.

If you were a Calvinist with integrity, something I believe you think you are, why would you allow Jesusfan to say Jesus died as the propitiation for the whole world, when the L of the Tulip says Jesus died for the sins of the elect only, otherwise when the non-elect go to hell their sins would be punished twice, once upon Christ and once upon them.

Yet you remained silent.

See why I think the way I do.

I allow Jesusfan to say this because it is what he understands the "L" of Tulip to mean. You may think he misunderstands calvinism, but that's not a reason to charge him with deception.

I'm sure there are Calvinist on this board with more integrity than me.

 

[12strings]

Calvinism L says Jesus did not provide the propitiation for the whole world, only for the elect. So Jesusfan misrepresented Calvinism's "L" This is not taking Jesusfan out of context, so yet another falsehood by Jbh28.

One more thing: Isn't it ironic that all of this came about because JesusFan's view of Atonement actually lines up more with your view than it does with calvinism? Should not you be rejoicing that JesusFan has obviously not bought in to to the full "L" of calvinism?

 

[Van]

Hi Greektim, if all you have to offer is off topic disparagement, why post?

 

[Van]

Hi 12 Strings, I did not say Jesusfan misrepresented his beliefs, I said he misrepresented Calvinism. The "L" of the TULIP. I posted in the OP what Calvinism believes and no one said I missed the mark.

If you believe either Jbh28 or Jesusfan actually believe Jesus died for all mankind, I have a bridge to sell you. Jesusfan tied to rework the "L" to make it sound consistent with 1 John 2:2 and I called him on it.

There is nothing wrong with missing my posted evidence and requesting I supply it. I did. But you chose to say I had not posted what I posted, rather than say where did I provide evidence of the falsehood.

One last thing, 12 Strings, you ask Jesusfan whether He believes Jesus died as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, and see if answers yes, no, or evades your question? He is a 5 pointer, not a 4 pointer. In my opinion, he has deceived you!!!!!!

 

[jbh28]

Folks, notice how the Calvinists, acting in unison, seek to derail the thread and "report" me for telling the truth.

That is all they have.

Calvinism L says Jesus did not provide the propitiation for the whole world, only for the elect. So Jesusfan misrepresented Calvinism's "L" This is not taking Jesusfan out of context, so yet another falsehood by Jbh28.

You took him out of context. I've demonstrated it. You lack the integrity to fess up. You have been called out by multiple people now. He said it was "for the whole world in the sense..." You left out "in the sense" part. I've done no "falsehood."

Van:

Jesusfan said, "Jesus died as a propiation of the sins of the entire World"

What Jesusfan Actually said.

Pretty clear from the Bible that Jesus died as a propiation of the sins of the entire World, in the sense that it had infinite worth, but that ONLY those who come to Him for their sins to be covered and atoned for by the Cross are the saved by it, and those are the ones chosen and elect out beforehand by God!

So don't keep trying to say I'm posting falsehoods. Everyone else knows that's not true. Just fess up that you made a mistake instead of attacking the character of other people on here without merit.

oh, and if you say the bolded part is not the "L" it's from the cannons of dort.

"While the death of Christ is abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world, its saving efficacy is limited to the elect."
"The death of the Son of God is the only and most perfect sacrifice and satisfaction for sin, and is of infinite worth and value, abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world."

 

[jbh28]

Jesusfan tied to rework the "L" to make it sound consistent with 1 John 2:2 and I called him on it.

One last thing, 12 Strings, you ask Jesusfan whether He believes Jesus died as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, and see if answers yes, no, or evades your question? He is a 5 pointer, not a 4 pointer. In my opinion, he has deceived you!!!!!!

I'm sure he would give you this answer,

Pretty clear from the Bible that Jesus died as a propitiation of the sins of the entire World, in the sense that it had infinite worth, but that ONLY those who come to Him for their sins to be covered and atoned for by the Cross are the saved by it, and those are the ones chosen and elect out beforehand by God!

You interpret it differently.

 

[Van]

Only one problem Jbh28, read posts 33, 34 and 35. Three different people said Jesusfan had misrepresented Calvinism's "L", so why should anyone accept that we all three took him out of context.

You have demonstrated only a willingness to double down on deceipt. Notice the reference to something said in the past of supposed merit. Yet another tactic of a false teacher.

Jbh28, three to one voted against your view. Here is how Jesusfan should have put it,
Jesus died as a propitiation of the sins of the elect, but the sacrifice had infinite woth in that if would have been sufficient for all. But that is not what he said. QED

 

[jbh28]

Only one problem Jbh28, read posts 33, 34 and 35. Three different people said Jesusfan had misrepresented Calvinism's "L", so why should anyone accept that we all three took him out of context.

Post 33, disagreed with my view, not that JesusFan had misrepresented the "L".
Post 34 had nothing but an agreement for post 34
Post 35 was you.

I've posted from Calvinistic resources showing that his view is in line with Calvinism. Do all Calvinists agree? Probably not just like not all Baptist agree on all points. JesusFan said he agreed with the I John 2 passage and explained how he interpreted it. You misrepresented his view. I called you out on it and instead of fessing up, you have resorted to personal attacks.

You have demonstrated only a willingness to double down on deceipt. Notice the reference to something said in the past of supposed merit. Yet another tactic of a false teacher.

now you are calling me a false teacher. What gives? you whine about people "attacking" you but you today are in all attack mode.

Jbh28, three to one voted against your view.

I'm sure there is more than just 3 that disagree with me. That's fine. That's not the point.

Here is how Jesusfan should have put it,
Jesus died as a propitiation of the sins of the elect, but the sacrifice had infinite woth in that if would have been sufficient for all. But that is not what he said. QED

Of course not. JesusFan quoted Scripture and then explained it on how he interprets it.

Stop whining and just fess up. Stop saying false things about me.

1. Deceptive
2. False teacher

both are against forum rules.

 

[jbh28]

Limited Atonement

http://www.theopedia.com/Definite_atonement

 

[jbh28]

Let me just say a few thoughts. I've misrepresented people before. I've been wrong before, in fact many times. I've misspoken. I've been angry and said things that are inappropriate to others. When that's pointed out to me, I do my best to fix it. I have no reason to misrepresent anyone here.

If someone has misrepresented you, let them know. There is no need to say statements like "100% of Calvinists use deception" and other like comments. That' very unchristlike.

Now, I've made bad statements before, so I'm not perfect. Example, in post 26 of this thread, I said something negative about Van. I had misrepresented what he had said. I took his statement and in my head added a word to change what he said. I went back later and read it and noticed my error. So I corrected it.


Let's try to keep this at a Christlike level.

 

[JesusFan]

Jbh28, why do you continue to post falsehood? Jesusfan said, "Jesus died as a propiation of the sins of the entire World" which is true but not Calvinism where Jesus died as a propitiation for the sins of the elect. He misrepresented Calvinism, and you denied it and continue to deny it. Go figure.

calvinism has stated that in the death of Christ, the propiation/provision was made by God to have the entire World reconciled back to Him, in that the work of Christ is unlimited/infinite in worth as he is God in human form dying for sins, but that the ones to receive this Grace are ONLY the one who cam meet the requirement of placing their faith in Christ!

Atonement can cover all those who will come to the Saviour , its just due to our sinful natures, cannot come to Christ UNLESS enabled to do such by God, and that means that you are one of the redemmed/elect of God!

 

[Dr. Bob]

Calling each other liars will earn suspension of posting rights. Not a game.

Stick with the theological issue, not he-said/she-said

 

[Greektim]

Calling each other liars will earn suspension of posting rights. Not a game.

Stick with the theological issue, not he-said/she-said

But that takes away my only argument