A question of headship and leadership

[agedman]

Yes you are.
The prophesying in I Corinthians has nothing at all to do with telling the future.

I strongly disagree that the word "prophecy" as it relates to a prophet in any part of the Scriptures means anything other than foretelling the future.

I challenge you to find ONE place that the words a prophet spoke in prophecy was not about the future.

I have studied through the word and am most certain of the meaning and use.

As far as limiting.
Do you realize that is the exact thinking that the enemy gave to Eve to beguile her into taking what was not really hers to enjoy?

Mind you, I am not placing a label upon you, rather showing how subtle the argument of "limiting" can be used to excuse participation and partaking in what God did or does not desire for our best.

 

[jbh28]

I strongly disagree that the word "prophecy" as it relates to a prophet in any part of the Scriptures means anything other than foretelling the future.

I challenge you to find ONE place that the words a prophet spoke in prophecy was not about the future.

I have studied through the word and am most certain of the meaning and use.

As far as limiting.
Do you realize that is the exact thinking that the enemy gave to Eve to beguile her into taking what was not really hers to enjoy?

Mind you, I am not placing a label upon you, rather showing how subtle the argument of "limiting" can be used to excuse participation and partaking in what God did or does not desire for our best.

You are limiting by only using ONE of the definitions. Words have multiple meanings. To prophesy is to give a message from God. It CAN mean to foretell, but can also mean to forth tell.

So, it can mean "To predict the future as if by divine inspiration." but can also mean "To reveal the will or message of God." The latter definition isn't about foretelling. It can also mean to simply deliver God's Word.

Context determines the meaning. Don't limit a word to one definition. Almost no words have just a singular definition.

My point is simply this that the "prophesy" in I Corinthians wasn't about telling the future.

 

[convicted1]

Boy's this thing is getting good in here!!

 

[DiamondLady]

I doubt you will stay in that corner, but I will tell again why Paul included it.

Because the Scriptures were not complete, prophets and prophecy did continue until as Paul said until that which was in part was made perfect and that the shadow (see through a dark glass) would be removed.

Paul (being a prophet) said that which was Perfect would come, and it did, and Paul said that when it did come that prophecy would cease. It has.

NO more prophecy. "

Well, you were right, I have to answer this, because I have to correct you here.....Paul says WOULD COME. FUTURE tense. When Paul wrote Christ had already come, been crucified and rose again, so if Paul was writing about Christ's first coming he would have used PAST tense...HAS come. Paul is writing about the 2nd coming of Christ, still to come.

Prophecy here is not speaking of future events like looking in a crystal ball. Prophecy is sharing insight and knowledge with others. It's those "ah ha" moments we get. Here's a good example. Our pastor was preaching on Adam and Eve and getting all down on Eve. After the service I walked up to him and said, "Why didn't Adam stop here, he was right there." The preacher had never seen the words, "with her;" his eyes and thoughts stopped with the "gave also unto her husband" in Genesis 3:6. Now that's prophecy....changed his whole outlook on what happened in the garden that day. Didn't change the outcome, didn't change the story....changed his perspective.

On the other: I'm not even going to waste anymore breath fussing over your <self-moderated> opinion on whether women should speak, because you're completely wrong.

 

[DHK]

You are limiting by only using ONE of the definitions. Words have multiple meanings. To prophesy is to give a message from God. It CAN mean to foretell, but can also mean to forth tell.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Corinthians 13:8)

It seems fairly clear that agedman is using the word prophecy in the same sense that it is used here and in 1Cor.11 where the spiritual gifts are listed. Those gifts have ceased, even as 13:8 said they would. "Prophesies shall fail." It is not a "gift" per se, to preach. That was not one of the miraculous sign gifts spoken of in 1Cor.11. One cannot redefine the word. The gift, in context, was a gift of revelatory knowledge--receiving direct revelation from God because the NT canon was not yet complete. That gift has ceased, as agedman has rightly pointed out.

He is not using the word in the secondary sense of the OT prophet--to forthtell. We don't even do that today. We must admit that the gift of prophecy has ceased, along with the gift of tongues, and the gift of miracles, and the gift of healing. They are no more in use today.

 

[jbh28]

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Corinthians 13:8)

It seems fairly clear that agedman is using the word prophecy in the same sense that it is used here and in 1Cor.11 where the spiritual gifts are listed. Those gifts have ceased, even as 13:8 said they would. "Prophesies shall fail." It is not a "gift" per se, to preach. That was not one of the miraculous sign gifts spoken of in 1Cor.11. One cannot redefine the word. The gift, in context, was a gift of revelatory knowledge--receiving direct revelation from God because the NT canon was not yet complete. That gift has ceased, as agedman has rightly pointed out.

He is not using the word in the secondary sense of the OT prophet--to forthtell. We don't even do that today. We must admit that the gift of prophecy has ceased, along with the gift of tongues, and the gift of miracles, and the gift of healing. They are no more in use today.

Oh, I agree with agedman that the sign gifts(tongues, miracles, healings, prophecy) have ceased. To prophesy can mean either definition. Today, the gift of prophecy has ceased.

The sign gifts are listed in chapter 12, not 11.

 

[agedman]

Two items that make this post a bit drawn out but both are important:

First: I have not used the word "forth-telling" because the definition used by some modern believers is faulty. They would apply prophecy foretelling characteristics to forth-telling in attempts of blending the two into a single.

The "forth-telling" aspect of a prophet is no more than a typical preacher or Sunday School teacher would do when exploring and explaining the Scriptures in the assembly.

The Baptist Board is filled with "forth-telling" every day.

The forth-telling is NOT a part of the word prophecy as used in the Scriptures nor what singled out a person as a prophet. Again forth telling is merely a continued expounding of the Scriptures that have already been revealed and told.

A prophet using prophecy used NEW information, not yet revealed, and about people and events of the future.

Prophecy ceased. Paul "prophesied" it would.

Second:

I perceive that some are holding that Christ is the one that Paul was referring to when he spoke of that which is perfect.

But look at the context. Here it is.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

What does the word "that" mean?

Christ in his bodily form was and is NEVER referred to as "that" in the Scriptures. But, the Word of God is.


Therefore, the word "that" refers to the completion of the Word of God.

Only the Word of God is able to divide between soul and spirit. Because we have the Holy Spirit, each of us has the ability to rightly divide the word of God. So, we have Christ, the spoken word of God that we hold, we read, and as we grow is implanted more and more into our hearts. He said He would never leave us or forsake us. Yet, he was taken from us and even the angles admitted that ("why stand ye here...").

The Christ we have with us and in our hearts is God's very voice as the recorded Word written down and now published throughout the world (as was foretold would happen) that no man is excused.

Those that believe that the word "that" means the time of Christ's actual presence on this earth or our appearing in His presence are making a leap over Scriptural consistency.

 

[jbh28]

Two items that make this post a bit drawn out but both are important:

First: I have not used the word "forth-telling" because the definition used by some modern believers is faulty. They would apply prophecy foretelling characteristics to forth-telling in attempts of blending the two into a single.

It's not faulty. go look it up on a dictionary. You can argue that it doesn't mean that here, but not that the word never means that.

The "forth-telling" aspect of a prophet is no more than a typical preacher or Sunday School teacher would do when exploring and explaining the Scriptures in the assembly.

In the broadest sense of the term, yes.

The forth-telling is NOT a part of the word prophecy as used in the Scriptures nor what singled out a person as a prophet. Again forth telling is merely a continued expounding of the Scriptures that have already been revealed and told.

A prophet using prophecy used NEW information, not yet revealed, and about people and events of the future.

Prophecy ceased. Paul "prophesied" it would.

Yes, PropheCy has ceased.

Second:

I perceive that some are holding that Christ is the one that Paul was referring to when he spoke of that which is perfect.

But look at the context. Here it is.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

What does the word "that" mean?

Christ in his bodily form was and is NEVER referred to as "that" in the Scriptures. But, the Word of God is.


Therefore, the word "that" refers to the completion of the Word of God.

I would agree with you on that(no pun intended)

Only the Word of God is able to divide between soul and spirit. Because we have the Holy Spirit, each of us has the ability to rightly divide the word of God. So, we have Christ, the spoken word of God that we hold, we read, and as we grow is implanted more and more into our hearts. He said He would never leave us or forsake us. Yet, he was taken from us and even the angles admitted that ("why stand ye here...").

The Christ we have with us and in our hearts is God's very voice as the recorded Word written down and now published throughout the world (as was foretold would happen) that no man is excused.

Those that believe that the word "that" means the time of Christ's actual presence on this earth or our appearing in His presence are making a leap over Scriptural consistency.[/QUOTE]

 

[agedman]

defined - agrees with me

from wiki.answers.com:

"Actually, foretelling and forth telling are two different things. To foretell is to tell something of the future, yes. But to forth tell is to give a message from God; not specifically about the future; just something from God. i.e., Jonah and the Ninevites; John the Baptist telling people to repent.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_forth_tell#ixzz1fIe0daQc"


You asked, I looked it up. Seems like wiki agrees with what I said it was defined as being.

No more than what a typical preacher or teacher would do on a Sunday Morning.

Any person can go "forth" and "tell" - in fact the believers are compelled by the Holy Spirit and by command of Scriptures so to do, but that is not prophecy.

forth-telling was something a prophet did, but did not distinguish the person as a prophet.

A prophet was distinguished as a prophet by specifically having one gift. They prophesied - told of future events.

No telling of future events - the person was not a prophet.

I would contend that the blending of fore telling and forth telling is an unfortunate scheme eventually leading into heretical thinking.

The word "forth-telling" should never be associated as "part of the definition of prophecy."

 

[DiamondLady]

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Corinthians 13:8)

It seems fairly clear that agedman is using the word prophecy in the same sense that it is used here and in 1Cor.11 where the spiritual gifts are listed. Those gifts have ceased, even as 13:8 said they would. "Prophesies shall fail." It is not a "gift" per se, to preach. That was not one of the miraculous sign gifts spoken of in 1Cor.11. One cannot redefine the word. The gift, in context, was a gift of revelatory knowledge--receiving direct revelation from God because the NT canon was not yet complete. That gift has ceased, as agedman has rightly pointed out.

He is not using the word in the secondary sense of the OT prophet--to forthtell. We don't even do that today. We must admit that the gift of prophecy has ceased, along with the gift of tongues, and the gift of miracles, and the gift of healing. They are no more in use today.

I'm interested in knowing why you think they've ceased? Did Paul give a deadline? He just said SHALL. That's future tense...so some time in the future they'll cease.

I think people need to read what's written and stop trying to read INTO what's written. People are afraid of what they don't understand. Now before you jump on me...I do NOT believe man receives prophecy such as Isaiah and the other OT prophets did. I do not believe God inspires man to write more scripture as He did with Paul, Matthew, and others. I do, HOWEVER, believe that God gives man insight today, clarity to understand the scriptures deeper, that things are definitely revealed to man, even today. That is, still, prophecy, when we share those revelations with others.

I believe there WILL come a day when those revelations will cease. It just hasn't happened yet.

 

[DiamondLady]

A prophet was distinguished as a prophet by specifically having one gift. They prophesied - told of future events.

No telling of future events - the person was not a prophet.

I."

Prophets did MORE than foretell the future. If that's all Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, etc did their books wouldn't be so long!!! They brought messages from God to the people, some were about the future, some were immediate. Of course, I guess an hour from now would be the future....guess we need to define future.

 

[agedman]

Prophets did MORE than foretell the future. If that's all Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, etc did their books wouldn't be so long!!! They brought messages from God to the people, some were about the future, some were immediate. Of course, I guess an hour from now would be the future....guess we need to define future.

Don't we all!

Multitasking is not a spiritual gift - even though some women think they have a market share of that ability.

A prophet's discussion with folks about God and even the inspired message that he might deliver (such as Nathan did to both Saul and David) is not prophecy. Preachers, teachers and even heathens can and do that.

What signifies the title and office of prophet - the telling of future events.

What signifies a true prophet according to Scriptures - they must pass the two publicly verifiable tests so even the heathens would know the person was a true prophet.

What signified a false prophet - the failure of completing either test.

Prophet is not a prophet without prophecy - the foretelling of future event(s).

I wonder how many preachers and teachers, if they desired the label prophet, would like to stake their life on passing the two tests of the true prophet?

life - the price paid by a false prophet.

 

[jbh28]

from wiki.answers.com:

"Actually, foretelling and forth telling are two different things. To foretell is to tell something of the future, yes. But to forth tell is to give a message from God; not specifically about the future; just something from God. i.e., Jonah and the Ninevites; John the Baptist telling people to repent.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_forth_tell#ixzz1fIe0daQc"


You asked, I looked it up. Seems like wiki agrees with what I said it was defined as being.

Never disagreed, just said it had a broader definition too.

No more than what a typical preacher or teacher would do on a Sunday Morning.

Any person can go "forth" and "tell" - in fact the believers are compelled by the Holy Spirit and by command of Scriptures so to do, but that is not prophecy.

NEVER said it was(at least didn't mean to, I misspelled the word a few time) Prophecy(noun) and prophesy(verb)

forth-telling was something a prophet did, but did not distinguish the person as a prophet.

A prophet would be one that directly received revelation from God

A prophet was distinguished as a prophet by specifically having one gift. They prophesied - told of future events.

No telling of future events - the person was not a prophet.

I would contend that the blending of fore telling and forth telling is an unfortunate scheme eventually leading into heretical thinking.

The word "forth-telling" should never be associated as "part of the definition of prophecy."

Prophecy, direct revelation from God, usually about a future event.
Prophet, one that directly receives revelation from God, again usually about future events.
Prophesy(verb) in the broadest sense can mean, though not usually used today, to speak revelation from God, whether directly or indirectly given. In the more specific sense, to give revelation given by God. This would only be done to a prophet and THAT would be prophecy(noun).

Now, I've already given a dictionary definition, case closed. move back to the topic.

 

[DHK]

I'm interested in knowing why you think they've ceased? Did Paul give a deadline? He just said SHALL. That's future tense...so some time in the future they'll cease.

I think people need to read what's written and stop trying to read INTO what's written. People are afraid of what they don't understand. Now before you jump on me...I do NOT believe man receives prophecy such as Isaiah and the other OT prophets did. I do not believe God inspires man to write more scripture as He did with Paul, Matthew, and others. I do, HOWEVER, believe that God gives man insight today, clarity to understand the scriptures deeper, that things are definitely revealed to man, even today. That is, still, prophecy, when we share those revelations with others.

I believe there WILL come a day when those revelations will cease. It just hasn't happened yet.

Two different posters just expounded 1Cor.8-13 for you, as to why prophecy, and thus the other spiritual or sign gifts have ceased: because that which is perfect (or complete) is come, and that which is in part (the temporary gifts of the spirit) have been done away.

But let me give you a challenge. To be clear however, I am speaking of gifts, the gifts of the Spirit as listed in 1Cor.12. I fully realize that God is able to heal today and do other works as he sees fit. So please don't answer that I don't believe that God heals. I do.

My challenge to you is to show me one instance of someone today who has the gift of healing.
Show me one person today who has the Biblical gift of speaking in tongues (foreign languages).
If you can't do this, wouldn't you agree with me that they have ceased? They ceased over 1900 years ago, and there is no proof they are in evidence today.

Here is what you would have to prove for the gift of healing.

There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)

Notice that people who were sick came and others brought their sick, not only from Jerusalem but from all the cities around Jerusalem, and they were healed every one.
All the broken bones, blindness, the lame, the deaf, the dumb, the diseased, the leprosy, the paraplegics, the quadriplegics, all, everyone of them were healed.

That would be equivalent to a "faith healer" of today to going into a large city and going from hospital to hospital, and going up and down the corridors of each hospital and healing all--everyone in the hospitals, including the ER rooms, of each and every sickness. Is there someone you know that has that power--"the gift of healing"? No one has had that gift since the days of the apostles, and likewise the rest of the sign gifts. Can you prove me wrong?

 

[jbh28]

Prophets did MORE than foretell the future. If that's all Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, etc did their books wouldn't be so long!!! They brought messages from God to the people, some were about the future, some were immediate. Of course, I guess an hour from now would be the future....guess we need to define future.

Correct as to what the prophets did. We though do not have prophets today.

 

[jbh28]

Two different posters just expounded 1Cor.8-13 for you, as to why prophecy, and thus the other spiritual or sign gifts have ceased: because that which is perfect (or complete) is come, and that which is in part (the temporary gifts of the spirit) have been done away.

But let me give you a challenge. To be clear however, I am speaking of gifts, the gifts of the Spirit as listed in 1Cor.12. I fully realize that God is able to heal today and do other works as he sees fit. So please don't answer that I don't believe that God heals. I do.

My challenge to you is to show me one instance of someone today who has the gift of healing.
Show me one person today who has the Biblical gift of speaking in tongues (foreign languages).
If you can't do this, wouldn't you agree with me that they have ceased? They ceased over 1900 years ago, and there is no proof they are in evidence today.

Here is what you would have to prove for the gift of healing.

There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)

Notice that people who were sick came and others brought their sick, not only from Jerusalem but from all the cities around Jerusalem, and they were healed every one.
All the broken bones, blindness, the lame, the deaf, the dumb, the diseased, the leprosy, the paraplegics, the quadriplegics, all, everyone of them were healed.

That would be equivalent to a "faith healer" of today to going into a large city and going from hospital to hospital, and going up and down the corridors of each hospital and healing all--everyone in the hospitals, including the ER rooms, of each and every sickness. Is there someone you know that has that power--"the gift of healing"? No one has had that gift since the days of the apostles, and likewise the rest of the sign gifts. Can you prove me wrong?

Yes, no more sign gifts today because we now have the complete Word of God. The purpose of the sign gifts is no longer needed.

 

[jbh28]

What signified a false prophet - the failure of completing either test.

I kid you not, a friend of mine read the other day that someone said that a test of a true prophet was if some of his prophecies didn't come true. Yes, didn't come true. It's sad what some will actually say.

 

[DiamondLady]

Two different posters just expounded 1Cor.8-13 for you, as to why prophecy, and thus the other spiritual or sign gifts have ceased: because that which is perfect (or complete) is come, and that which is in part (the temporary gifts of the spirit) have been done away.
I disagree here on, that while Christ has come, died and was resurrected his work is not complete until he returns to claim his bride, conquer Satan and usher in the Millennial Kingdom.

But let me give you a challenge. To be clear however, I am speaking of gifts, the gifts of the Spirit as listed in 1Cor.12. I fully realize that God is able to heal today and do other works as he sees fit. So please don't answer that I don't believe that God heals. I do. I see the gift of healing in each individual today through prayer. I do not believe in faith healers of the Benny Hinn, Earnest Angley, Kathryn Kuhlman ilk but rather that the gift has changed for today in that each Christian, through prayer, receives healing, prays for healing for others. If you're looking for proof that someone can bop you in the forehead, you fall on the floor flailing and foaming then you won't find someone. Neither will you find anyone who heals as Christ did or as the disciples did in scripture.

My challenge to you is to show me one instance of someone today who has the gift of healing.
Show me one person today who has the Biblical gift of speaking in tongues (foreign languages). I suggest that ANY missionary who preaches in another language could be considered to have the gift of tongues.
If you can't do this, wouldn't you agree with me that they have ceased? They ceased over 1900 years ago, and there is no proof they are in evidence today.
I do not believe they have ceased only taken a different form that works in today's world.
Here is what you would have to prove for the gift of healing.

There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)

Notice that people who were sick came and others brought their sick, not only from Jerusalem but from all the cities around Jerusalem, and they were healed every one.
All the broken bones, blindness, the lame, the deaf, the dumb, the diseased, the leprosy, the paraplegics, the quadriplegics, all, everyone of them were healed.

That would be equivalent to a "faith healer" of today to going into a large city and going from hospital to hospital, and going up and down the corridors of each hospital and healing all--everyone in the hospitals, including the ER rooms, of each and every sickness. Is there someone you know that has that power--"the gift of healing"? No one has had that gift since the days of the apostles, and likewise the rest of the sign gifts. Can you prove me wrong?

I don't need to "prove you wrong" I suggest to you simply that the gifts are different today. That's all.

 

[agedman]

I don't need to "prove you wrong" I suggest to you simply that the gifts are different today. That's all.

That is a problem.

God's word doesn't change and neither does his character. (Same yesterday, today ...)

The Scriptures said that the "gifts" are without repentance - that means change. The Scriptures said that some would "pass away." They have.

If that character and standard were not of God, then how can one trust Him. He might change his love, his grace, his method of saving souls, his ....

Besides, Paul specifically tells of the "gifts of the Spirit" and healing, tongues, prophecy ... were not on the list.

 

[jbh28]

That is a problem.

God's word doesn't change and neither does his character. (Same yesterday, today ...)

The Scriptures said that the "gifts" are without repentance - that means change. The Scriptures said that some would "pass away." They have.

If that character and standard were not of God, then how can one trust Him. He might change his love, his grace, his method of saving souls, his ....

Besides, Paul specifically tells of the "gifts of the Spirit" and healing, tongues, prophecy ... were not on the list.

Good point