• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

A question of headship and leadership

Status
Not open for further replies.

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Umm - that has nothing to do with the church. That was how many people returned from exile. Try in context dear.

You wanted Scriptures to show women singing, and I presented an example.

There were no separation of sacred and secular for Israel. The people are called by His name and He is there God. Therefore, when they assembled, it was as a church, for God was in their midst - well at least for a while.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You wanted Scriptures to show women singing, and I presented an example.

The context was in the church. YOU stated that. But then you said that it's OK for women to sing in groups:

If this is not scripturally correct, then show by what scriptural authority the women of the modern church present themselves as soloists (for women are allowed to sing in groups) and or as teachers of men, rather than shamefaced, not wearing any jewelry, and silent.

Yet you tell me that it's OK for women to sing in groups because Israel had singers.

There were no separation of sacred and secular for Israel. The people are called by His name and He is there God. Therefore, when they assembled, it was as a church, for God was in their midst - well at least for a while.

There actually WAS separation of sacred and secular. Yes, there could be women who sang culturally but try bringing them into the tabernacle and you might have some trouble.

I'm sorry but you have not shown me Scripturally where women are allowed to sing in a group but not solo in a church. You have decided that little bit on your own but declaring it Scriptural. That's a dangerous spot to be in!
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes, there could be women who sang culturally but try bringing them into the tabernacle and you might have some trouble.

I'm sorry but you have not shown me Scripturally where women are allowed to sing in a group but not solo in a church.

Now, is this not a particular problem for you? Did you change your thinking?

It is YOU that has consistently argued AGAINST women being silent in the church, and here you state that it would be a problem in the tabernacle for them to sing even as a group.

Seems you are using your post as a proof of Paul's statement being born out in an Old Testament example?

If you recant, then you would have to show that women did in fact sing in groups at worship.



On the other matter, to the practicing Jew all things revolve around their identification with the religious and ceremonial traditions, even down to the clothes they wear. The Jewish folk considers a Jew a Jew until there is a denial of the religion and then that "former Jew" is considered dead.

The believer is to have that same way of being. There is no separation as to sacred and secular. A believer is considered a believer until there is a denial of belief and then that person is to be cut out and off from the body of believers.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Now, is this not a particular problem for you? Did you change your thinking?

It is YOU that has consistently argued AGAINST women being silent in the church, and here you state that it would be a problem in the tabernacle for them to sing even as a group.

I'm showing you the fallacy of your argument.

Seems you are using your post as a proof of Paul's statement being born out in an Old Testament example?

Nope, not at all.

If you recant, then you would have to show that women did in fact sing in groups at worship.

No I'm waiting for you to show me that it is OK for women to sing in ensembles and not solos in church. So far I haven't seen that. It's your personal interpretation - not God's.



On the other matter, to the practicing Jew all things revolve around their identification with the religious and ceremonial traditions, even down to the clothes they wear. The Jewish folk considers a Jew a Jew until there is a denial of the religion and then that "former Jew" is considered dead.

The believer is to have that same way of being. There is no separation as to sacred and secular. A believer is considered a believer until there is a denial of belief and then that person is to be cut out and off from the body of believers.

If there is no separation of sacred and secular, then according to you, a woman would NEVER be allowed to speak.
 
I have bowed out of this, and will sit back and enjoy the conversation between Sis. Ann and Bro. agedman.


4.gif
20.gif


gotta have something to wash this down with.
22.gif
 

12strings

Active Member
I have already spoken about the prophecy question...[insert prophesy argument]
I am sure in my haste that I have left something important out.

:eek:

Yes, you have left out the part about women praying...

also, am I undrstanding you correctly in that you believe that for a short time in the early NT Church, a woman could stand and prophesy (out loud), but that based on the fact that the cannon is now closed that women should be completely silent in church?
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If (as you contend) that there is no scriptural proof that the women were allowed to sing at temple, then they were silent.

Paul said they were to be silent in the church.

If you want to extend the proof you have offered to say that women should not sing solos or in ensembles, that is permissible.

I do not believe that women were excluded from singing with the congregation of Israel at temple, nor do I believe that they were left out of the choral assemblies.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If (as you contend) that there is no scriptural proof that the women were allowed to sing at temple, then they were silent.

Paul said they were to be silent in the church.

If you want to extend the proof you have offered to say that women should not sing solos or in ensembles, that is permissible.

I do not believe that women were excluded from singing with the congregation of Israel at temple, nor do I believe that they were left out of the choral assemblies.

But you say a woman is to be silent. If she sings, she is not silent. You can't have your cake and eat it too, huh?
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes, you have left out the part about women praying...

also, am I undrstanding you correctly in that you believe that for a short time in the early NT Church, a woman could stand and prophesy (out loud), but that based on the fact that the cannon is now closed that women should be completely silent in church?



Paul talks of prophecy in the early church, and because there were women prophets, I am making the assumption that they spoke. An Old Testament example would be Miriam leading the women out and instructing them on their response to the Egyptian's demise.

Prophecy has no place in the modern church for the Word of God is closed. There is no "new" revelation from God and therefore no need of prophecy.

Paul said women were to be silent.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Certainly!

I make a mean Dr. Pepper cake :)

I am slightly allergic to chocolate, but can tolerate it enough that I can eat a piece and still have cake for later.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But you say a woman is to be silent. If she sings, she is not silent.

Because you say that women did not sing at tabernacle then it follows that Paul's thinking would be that women not sing, either.

Remember Paul said women were to be silent, I am merely restating that Scripture.
 

12strings

Active Member
Paul talks of prophecy in the early church, and because there were women prophets, I am making the assumption that they spoke. An Old Testament example would be Miriam leading the women out and instructing them on their response to the Egyptian's demise.

Prophecy has no place in the modern church for the Word of God is closed. There is no "new" revelation from God and therefore no need of prophecy.

Paul said women were to be silent.


You left out he part about women praying again...
1 Corinthians 11:5 - But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head...
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Paul talks of prophecy in the early church, and because there were women prophets, I am making the assumption that they spoke. An Old Testament example would be Miriam leading the women out and instructing them on their response to the Egyptian's demise.

Prophecy has no place in the modern church for the Word of God is closed. There is no "new" revelation from God and therefore no need of prophecy.

Paul said women were to be silent.

Paul said that women can prophesy.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You left out he part about women praying again...
1 Corinthians 11:5 - But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head...

The examples of women prayers in the scriptures especially how and what they prayed is wonderful.

I recall when the priest rebuked the earnest praying of a woman as one who was drunk. It took place at temple, and wasn't she marvelously blessed.

Because of such examples, I see no problem with women praying privately nor do I see such communication with God through Christ ever restricted in scriptures except when conflict and sin rule.

Because Paul said that the women are to be silent, I have sought the examples of acceptable practice found in the Old and New Testament that would place certain qualifiers upon the statement. Prayer offered by the woman in the church as a private matter between she and Christ, and not open to public hearing would resolve the seeming dilemma between Paul's demand and the practice.


I have at times wondered about Christ's thinking during the public prayers offered in a church service. The one time I sensed the Holy Spirit's greatest approval was when the church offered not one word publicly, but each prayed from within their own heart during that very quiet time. The stillness and sombre moment made the very atmosphere alive with the presence of Christ. More than one person remarked how they regretted the growing urgency and pressure of the need to move to the next point in the "order of worship."
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Paul said that women can prophesy.
From Jamieson, Faucett and Brown:
5. woman . . . prayeth . . . prophesieth--This instance of women speaking in public worship is an extraordinary case, and justified only by the miraculous gifts which such women possessed as their credentials; for instance, Anna the prophetess and Priscilla (so Ac 2:18). The ordinary rule to them is: silence in public (1Co 14:34-35; 1Ti 2:11-12). Mental receptivity and activity in family life are recognized in Christianity, as most accordant with the destiny of woman. This passage does not necessarily sanction women speaking in public, even though possessing miraculous gifts; but simply records what took place at Corinth, without expressing an opinion on it, reserving the censure of it till 1Co 14:34-35. Even those women endowed with prophecy were designed to exercise their gift, rather in other times and places, than the public congregation.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Paul said that women can prophesy.


Can you show that the Scriptures are not complete and prophecy is still a viable method God uses to communicate with humans?

Because if such were the case, then the prophetic writings of a present day prophet would hold the same value as the very Word of God.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
John Gill LOL:

"every woman that prayeth or prophesieth" merely means that she

joins in public worship with the minister in prayer, and attends on the hearing of the word preached, or sings the praises of God with the congregation

Yeah. That's the ticket!

She prophesies=she listens to the minister prophesy.

Now wasn't that simple.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Can you show that the Scriptures are not complete and prophecy is still a viable method God uses to communicate with humans?

Because if such were the case, then the prophetic writings of a present day prophet would hold the same value as the very Word of God.

What I'm saying is that the very same Paul who said that the women are to be silent said that the women are to prophesy. Did he contradict himself?
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Sis. Hannah Method of churchlady praying (I Sam 1:12,13), important part in bold:

As she continued praying before the Lord, Eli observed her mouth. Hannah was speaking in her heart; only her lips moved, and her voice was not heard.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top