How do you deal with others here in our debates?

Indeed it does.

The Archangel

 

Yes. You mean the book that says-

19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

These are not sweet words.

This same John also said:

7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


9I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.


And according to the dictates of Jesus John wrote:

6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.


and...

19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.



So there are things going on in the churches we should hate, the Lord is against us when we do not hate these things, John said that the world hating us should not be a surprise to us, etc...

Now, I know most of this has to do with how we approach heresy not how we approach Arminianism. Just for the record I do not attack Arminianism like I attack KJVO, etc...

But the point I think is clear from these scattered passages is that when the Scripture says that we should speak the truth in "love" it CANNOT mean that we should never be extremely cutting.

And if your point is that we should love the brethren, one of the dominant themes of I John, I agree.

So I don't know what your point to me is.

 

Do you teach like this at your church? What is the reaction?

 

Perhaps you missed these:

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers (1 John 3:14)

[7] Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. [8] Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. [9] In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
[10] In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. [11] Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. [12] No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
[13] By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. [14] And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. [15] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. [16] So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. [17] By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. [18] There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. [19] We love because he first loved us. [20] If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. [21] And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. (1 John 4:7-21 ESV)

You are extremely close to demonstrating something other than love for the brothers and sisters.

The Archangel

 

And then there's this:

[4:1] I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, [2] with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, [3] eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:1-3 ESV)

Luke, are you "walking in gentleness?" If you are not--and it is clear by your own testimony that you do not concern yourself with these things--then you are not walking in a manner worthy of your calling.

You seem not to care about "maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." You seek to maintain "unity" through brutality. There is no peace in your writings.

You don't seem to care about bearing with anyone in love.

Your writings seem to suggest that you think of your opponents as dogs, not brothers or sisters in Christ.

Paul stands against you. The Word of God stands against you. I urge you to repent.

The Archangel

 

There is a difference. Paul used love. Love overcomes, not mans methods. You can say truth that is convincing in love, or condemning with a mean spirit. I doubt that Luke teaches the youth at his church with the attack and demeanor he demonstrates here. If he did, the youth department would be empty and parents would be screaming for removal. I understand his passion for teaching what he believes is truth, but it has turned into an overbearing zealousness that turns away the reader.

 

I don't have to. My people are not arrogant. They believe in education and the importance of historical theology.

They are humble people who are teachable.

Yet they have better sense than to believe in new doctrines like KJVO and IFB (at least the hundreds of IFB churches with which I am familiar) type legalism and isolationism.

On the rare occasion that I am very bold and harsh they usually embrace me that much more.

We've baptized about 15 in two and half years.

We vote in two weeks to build a new 4,000 ft facility which is phase one of a building project, phase 2 being to expand our educatoinal facility and phase three being to build a new larger sanctuary.

I say that to say- they take it well.

 

I think I will inquire your church and show them by example your teachings here and see if that is the case.

 

As far as Luther was concerned, Erasmus was a Christian. Yet Luther OBLITERATED Erasmus' thinking in Bondage of the Will.

As for MacArthur, his assault against Charasmatics in Charasmatic Chaos was not directly a Gospel issue.

There are charasmatics here on baptistboard. Would you say that they do not believe the GOSPEL? Of course not.

As for Piper- you ought to watch this clip. I too have great respect for Piper.

Here he attacks the prosperity Gospel. He says, "Do you want to know how I feel about the prosperity Gospel? One word- HATRED."

Then he goes on to call it CRAP.

The prosperity gospel is held by many thousands of people who call themselves Christians.


Well, frankly that's the way I feel about backwards, legalistic, arrogant, ignorant pseudo-fundamentalism preached to hundreds of thousands of people in this world every week.

I don't have a major problem with Arminianism so I DON'T condemn it like I condemn pseudo-fundamentalism. But in these Arminian/Calvinism debates stuff like openness pops up and the character of God is called into question. And I abominate these things- as should all Christians.


You have no case here.

 

I dont understand you here Archangel......

"The Gospel is offensive enough; Calvinism is offensive enough."

How is both the Gospel & Calvinism offensive?

 

Luther also attacked the Jews .....I will not go through all the details but you need to read about that before you use him as your new mentor.

& Christ confronted in truth...... I suggest you reevaluate His technique.

 

I disagree about the zebra comment, anyone can see that these are white zebras with black stripes.

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/zebra/

HankD

 

That's the innuendo part to which I was referring.

And it does work both ways because it doesn't depend on one's theology but human nature and the flesh.

HankD

 

Yes, I do have a case. Re-read what I posed in post #65:

And then there's this:

[4:1] I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, [2] with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, [3] eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:1-3 ESV)

Luke, are you "walking in gentleness?" If you are not--and it is clear by your own testimony that you do not concern yourself with these things--then you are not walking in a manner worthy of your calling.

You seem not to care about "maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." You seek to maintain "unity" through brutality. There is no peace in your writings.

You don't seem to care about bearing with anyone in love.

Your writings seem to suggest that you think of your opponents as dogs, not brothers or sisters in Christ.

Paul stands against you. The Word of God stands against you. I urge you to repent.

The Archangel

 

I'll tackle this one, since it's easier than the other stuff on this thread...

Romans 9:33 - as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

The context here and in 1 Peter 2:8 make it clear that christ himself is the ROCK of offense.

See also: Galatians 5:11 - But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed.

 

Is it your contention that this passage pertains to all circumstances at all times- in other words, that you are to never be anything but gentle?

Because I believe in practicing what this passage teaches.

Here at my church it is the general, almost without exception, way of things.

But, if I had in my church someone who taught that the King James Bible is the only truly reliable version of Scripture in the English language and that it is AS reliable as the original manuscripts; if that person would not receive correction after multiple admonitions and would not stop promoting that idea which has begun to cause division and controversy in the Body- I would then move on from "gentleness" to...

I Corinthians 4
18Now some have become arrogant, as though I were not coming to you. 19But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the words of those who are arrogant but their power. 20For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power. 21What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness?



You seem to be under the very mistaken impression that the Bible teaches the one (gentleness) to the exclusion of the other (rod).

I think this is because you, as well as ever other person in our culture including me, have been influenced heavily by this thinking that is particular to our age that is obsessed with tolerance and abominates condemnation.

But that is not Christian- it is pop culture.

And you, like many, many good, intelligent Christian people have not yet pulled this cultural influence from your thinking.

I say this because, so far, you have yet to make an exegetical case for your rebuke of me rebuking people.

You can't because it is not there.

It is not that you can't because I am smarter than you. I am not smarter than you. I admit that without hesitation. You are smarter than me. I concede that without controversy.

It is that you are wrong. You can be smarter than me, which you are, and yet it be the case that I am right about some things concerning which you are wrong about.

This is one of them.

Not with arrogant people who spread darkness like openness theology and pseudo-fundamentalism.

And neither should you be gentle with the likes. It may make you feel warm and fuzzy on the inside- it may make you think you have the super spiritual high ground- but it is not right.

You totally twisted that comment of mine.

I may be more aggressive than is always called for. That is worth investigating. You may be right. If you make a good case here, you may indeed help me in this area.

But what is not true, in my estimation, is that I should not be firmly condemnatory of the thinking of numerous people on baptist board.

BTW, I agree with you that Arminianism is not heresy. I agree with you that we should handle our Arminian brethren with gentleness. But I know you realize that in some of these debates, some guys, like Winman for example, bring up pure Pelagianism (with an odd twist of eternal security) which you yourself said should be condemned. Also Openness Theology comes up and I agree with Sproul on that- it is evil.

If that refers to demeanor then it cannot be universal as I have clearly proven.

If it refers to action then I do bear these in love while I vociferously condemn their erroneous thinking.

I am not concerned with trying to find out whether or not they are really brothers in Christ. I cannot decipher that- on a forum like this especially. I debate against ideas not persons. The ideas get from me the treatment that I believe the ideas deserve. If the idea is abominable it is treated that way. I think that is the way Scripture teaches us to handle such things.

I Corinthians 10
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

No, sir. As I think I have proven- he stands against you on this matter.

Ditto

 

Why can't the zebra be black AND white?

Calvinism is right AND wrong.

Arminianism is right AND wrong.

It's not one or the other, even though many will argue that it is.