Theoretical sinlessness

[DHK]

Here is a point so often misunderstood. If in fact it a man has ever lived free from sin, it would not prove or suggest that man did it alone. When Adam walked with God in the garden sinless, God was at work in the heart of Adam influencing him to righteousness. Certainly Adam's will was involved in his choices, but still Adam would not have acted righteously apart from the influences of God. So it is a false conclusion, a strawman so to speak, to suggest that sinlessness would be accomplished apart from God even if it was accomplished but for just a period of time. If righteousness is the result of man's will, God and His influences are always involved.

God's involvement does not negate the fact that man is the first cause of all his moral choices.

Adam was created not born. Adam was created perfectly.
We are born, not created. We are born according to the second law of Thermodynamics--with the law of corruption and decay setting in the minute we come out of the womb. The sin nature is already in effect.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah: I never referred to the wind. I said thoughts are like the air, bad thoughts anyway, since Satan is the prince of the air.

HP: I have never heard it explained that way before. I am not sure I make the total connection but that's okay. We all explain things differently.:thumbsup:

 

[Moriah]

Even unbelievers can do good things. We are all capable of doing right, except that we cannot do right all the time and never sin. That is why we need a Savior. Jesus says “When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ 25 When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. 26 Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.” Luke 11. That is how it is for those who do not have the Spirit of God and Jesus living in them.
We just cannot overcome this world without faith in Jesus Christ. 1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[Moriah]

HP: I have never heard it explained that way before. I am not sure I make the total connection but that's okay. We all explain things differently.:thumbsup:

People have told me that they want to believe in God and Jesus but they just cannot. People get thoughts in their minds telling them Jesus is not real, or Jesus does not love them or want them. Where do these bad thoughts come from? Are they not from the prince of the air? The Bible says to resist the devil, submit to God, stop doubting; the violent take it by force.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: We are born, not created. We are born according to the second law of Thermodynamics--with the law of corruption and decay setting in the minute we come out of the womb. The sin nature is already in effect.

HP: When we are born as moral beings, or should I say with the capacity to become moral beings, two distinctly different realms are involved. There is the realm of the physical, and there is the realm of the spiritual. It is true that in the physical realm the law of corruption and decay does set in the minute we come out of the womb. That does not apply to the spiritual realm. Sin belongs to the spiritual realm not the physical realm. The physical realm can act as an influence to sin, or a proclivity to sin, but it is not sin in and of itself. The spiritual realm is not subject to the second law of thermodynamics. Sin, as well as a moral intents and actions, belongs to the spiritual realm not the physical. The physical realm obviously is affected by sin, but again sin does not belong to the physical realm.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah: People have told me that they want to believe in God and Jesus but they just cannot. People get thoughts in their minds telling them Jesus is not real, or Jesus does not love them or want them. Where do these bad thoughts come from? Are they not from the prince of the air? The Bible says to resist the devil, submit to God, stop doubting; the violent take it by force.

HP: I certainly would not tell them to resist the air.

I am not certain one that destitute of spiritual knowledge would understand the connection to the air. Bad thoughts come from bad choices, from habits, from the sensibilities, from the influence of others, from Satan himself, etc.

Again it is a strange analogy to me but that does not mean it does not or will not work for you. :thumbsup:

 

[Moriah]

HP: I certainly would not tell them to resist the air.

I am not certain one that destitute of spiritual knowledge would understand the connection to the air. Bad thoughts come from bad choices, from habits, from the sensibilities, from the influence of others, from Satan himself, etc.

Again it is a strange analogy to me but that does not mean it does not or will not work for you. :thumbsup:

You said: I certainly would not tell them to resist the air.

My reply: Would you tell them not to listen to their thoughts? Would you tell them their thoughts are lies? Would you tell them that Satan is the prince of the air?

You said: I am not certain one that destitute of spiritual knowledge would understand the connection to the air. Bad thoughts come from bad choices, from habits, from the sensibilities, from the influence of others, from Satan himself, etc.

My reply: Well, I do not think it seems so difficult to understand. Read what others have said about thoughts:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Thoughts

You said: Again it is a strange analogy to me but that does not mean it does not or will not work for you.

My reply: I got the belief from the Bible. Ephesians 6:12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, Matthew 15: 19“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. Genesis 6:5 and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, Matthew 13:18-19 the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. Ephesians 2:3 gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.
I have an idea, why not you explain to me what the prince of the air means. In addition, I want to know how you think Satan has to do with our sinning. I am always willing to learn biblical truths.

 

[DHK]

HP: When we are born as moral beings, or should I say with the capacity to become moral beings, two distinctly different realms are involved. There is the realm of the physical, and there is the realm of the spiritual. It is true that in the physical realm the law of corruption and decay does set in the minute we come out of the womb. That does not apply to the spiritual realm. Sin belongs to the spiritual realm not the physical realm. The physical realm can act as an influence to sin, or a proclivity to sin, but it is not sin in and of itself. The spiritual realm is not subject to the second law of thermodynamics. Sin, as well as a moral intents and actions, belongs to the spiritual realm not the physical. The physical realm obviously is affected by sin, but again sin does not belong to the physical realm.

I am but a pilgrim and stranger in this sin cursed world, and someday when I reach my final destination, where my citizenship really is, I will have a new body, a resurrected body that will never suffer any pain again. But more than that I will have a new nature, and I won't be prone to sin against God any more. In fact I will look forward to the day when I can cast my crown before him in glory. I admit that I don't always have that great spiritual attitude. There are sometimes when there are lows in this life. David spoke of them in Psalm 23. They come as a result of our sin nature. I won't face that in glory any more. I will never again be prone to sin. I won't have that nature that I have now.

(1Jn 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Winman]

Adam was created not born. Adam was created perfectly.
We are born, not created. We are born according to the second law of Thermodynamics--with the law of corruption and decay setting in the minute we come out of the womb. The sin nature is already in effect.

It is possible, even probable that our physical corruption that resulted from the curse has an effect on our intellect and judgment. Adam was able to name all the animals, a monumental feat. Our impaired intellect and judgment might make us more susceptible to temptation after the fall. But it is temptation that arises when our natural lusts are excited, and our free will decision to obey these lusts that causes sin. Satan and the world can only tempt, not compel.

A child is born with all the lusts but not intellect. The will is conditioned early to satisfy the lusts. Habits are formed. When the child is old enough to understand sin and make moral choices, the sensibilities have a big advantage, as the habit of fulfilling these lusts is well developed. The will wants to do well, but the flesh is weak. So we easily fall into sin. Temptation is not sin, only when the will obeys a sinful temptation does one sin and die spiritually. But a child must be mature enough to be accountable (Isa 7:16).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I am but a pilgrim and stranger in this sin cursed world, and someday when I reach my final destination, where my citizenship really is, I will have a new body, a resurrected body that will never suffer any pain again.

HP: it is impossible to know by way of this discussion forum what a person might be going through or the pain they might be suffering. I can assure you that I am no stranger to pain. Many suffer far worse than I do. It is indeed a glorious thought to think of the things that God has prepared for those that love Him.

DHK: But more than that I will have a new nature, and I won't be prone to sin against God any more.

HP: I am not for sure what you mean by a nature 'prone to sin.' Certainly as believers we experience temptation to sin, but we have received a new nature as believers where the least that should be said of our practice as believers is that sin is no longer the ordinary practice in our lives, but rather sin should be the unordinary or unusual, happening only under possible extreme temptations to sin.

I would agree that in heaven we will not have the same temptations that we face here in this world, in particular we will not be plagued with temptations via the natural depraved sensibilities or from Satan and the world. I would like to think that no temptation in any form could be possible in the world to come but I am not certain that Scripture supports that entirely. If temptation in any form exists in heaven, we can be assured we will be together with the Lord forever.

DHK: In fact I will look forward to the day when I can cast my crown before him in glory. I admit that I don't always have that great spiritual attitude.

HP: How about we both work on our attitudes together? Is a rare bird indeed that couldn't stand some change in their attitudes at least at times. I know I sure need help from time to time in that department. Just ask my wife.:thumbs:

DHK: There are sometimes when there are lows in this life. David spoke of them in Psalm 23. They come as a result of our sin nature. I won't face that in glory any more. I will never again be prone to sin. I won't have that nature that I have now.

HP: It should be our purpose, in this present world, never sin again. With man that's impossible but with God all things are possible. Of a truth it is impossible to try to achieve something that one views as a natural impossibility. I believe it is God's will that we live holy and pure lives before Him on a daily basis in spite of all adversities, temptations, hurt from others, pain, hardship, defamation of character by others, lack, peril, misunderstandings, rejection, or abandonment even by those we love.

1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
1Th 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.

 

[glfredrick]

Give me a break, I have heard Calvinists here say everything an unregenerate man does is evil because it is done for the wrong motive MANY times. You may not personally believe this, but it common among Calvinists. And I don't know of any Calvinist that believes a person can have real faith in God (which Cornelius had) before being regenerated by the Spirit.

It is impossible for anyone to properly understand Calvinism, because no two Calvinists believe the same.

What Calvinists around here "say" and what Calvinism as a theological doctrine actually states may be two different things. Not everyone here on the board who claims Calvinism is fully cognizant of the doctrines they hold. I think to be fair the same could be said for the Arminians and even more so for the folks who hold to some "non-" doctrine -- perhaps of all people they are the most confused and non-coherent in their doctrines. In any case, Calvinism as a theological doctrine DOES NOT SAY that every act of man is THE MOST POSSIBLE EVIL. It never has and never does stipulate that, which is why I am telling you that you do not understand total depravity.

Also, it is VERY EASY to define Calvinism if one tosses out the stereotypes and strawmen that are bandied about concerning the doctrine. It is well established and has been the majority view of the Church since day one. There are more writings concerning the Calvinist position than all others combined. It is not difficult to learn what the doctrine actually stipulates and the biblical source of those stipulations.

So... Stop hiding behind a smoke screen.

Next, it would appear that you are saying that Cornelius had "saving faith" before he was regenerated by God. That is IMPOSSIBLE. NO man (person) has saving faith before they are regenerated by Christ. If so, then Christ is unnecessary to the salvific event and to say that is both blasphemous and heretical!

Cornelius may have had some religious and human-based belief in a God whom he discovered via the worship of the Jewish people he worked among, but unless or until he was regenerated by Christ he was not saved.

That you cannot differentiate between the common faith of a religious sort and the justified faith of a true believer leads me to question your own understanding of what it means to be a Christian. In that light, I would like to ask a few exploratory questions... Answer if you can.

1. Does a Mormon profess to have faith in God? Is their "faith" salvific?
2. Does a Catholic profess to have faith in God? Is their "faith" salvific?
3. Does a Jehovah's Witness profess to have faith in God? Is their "faith" salvific?
4. Does a Christian Scientist profess to have faith in God? Is their "faith" salvific?
5. Does a Branch Davidian profess to have faith in God? Is their "faith" salvific?
6. Does a Jew profess to have faith in God? Is their "faith" salvific?

I think that we could rightly say that EACH of the individuals above profess "faith" in God. They BELIEVE. Yet, I believe that we could also rightly say that their faith is not "salvific." In other words, their faith does not save them. Why not? They have "faith" and even "faith in God." Perhaps it is because unless one is born again from above, justified, regenerated, adopted, sealed, etc., one is not truly saved, and more so, ONLY GOD can impart those tenets of salvation. No man, by his faith alone, is saved.

That rather shoots your concept of Cornelius -- or by default your concept of the potential of salvation by perfectly keeping the Law -- right out of the water.

Now, go and examine your own "faith" and see if it is truly a regenerate faith given by God or merely a "religious" faith akin to that of men everywhere who are not saved.

 

[Darrell C]

In response to Darrell #109

When I say Cornelius refutes Total Depravity, I am speaking of the Calvinist view that holds unregenerate man cannot have true faith in God or perform any good work that is acceptable to God. Cornelius refutes this, he had true faith and his works and prayers were accepted with God. He did all this before he heard and believed the gospel and received the Spirit. This refutes Total Depravity in the Calvinist view.

But it does not refute what scripture says concerning man: he cannot, because he does not have the ability not to sin, meet a standard of righteousness which would allow him to bypass the penalty of law. You have agreed to this already.

So I do not know why this continues to be debated.

If it is not possible for man to be righteous unto life, the life of God, that settles it. No further discussion required.

We see that while man may have a positional standing of righteousness among men, according to the righteousness of God, over and over in scripture we see that he does not.

Arguments are presented based primarily upon syllogistic reasoning, such as "If the Lord said obey the law and you will live," the conclusion is that man would live if he obeyed the law. The flaw with that logic is that nowhere does it say that man can, and states the exact opposite.

If james says...


James 3

2For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.


Now this states that if any man bridles his tongue, he also bridles his body, right? He is a perfect man.

Is that not what James is saying?

I have never said Cornelius, or Abraham, or David, or any other person never sinned. I don't know where you got that, but you didn't get it from me. I would appreciate if you did not misrepresent me.

[/QUOTE]


I can see I will have to more careful in my wording.

Okay...why did they sin?

Answer that and the discussion ends.

And that men were once in right standing with God, why did Jesus say we must be born AGAIN? What is the definition of "again"?

In the parable of the prodigal son, why did Jesus twice say the young man was ALIVE AGAIN? How can you be "alive again" if you were born dead?

He is very clear in John 3...the first is physical, the second is spiritual.

Again can also be viewed as "above." This is in agreement with John 1, which speaks of the work of God in the new birth, stating that those that receive Christ are born of God. This is a familiar theme in John's writing.

The dispute is when men became "not in right standing with God."

Denial that man's nature separates man from God from birth leads to other fallacies, such as man can be righteous based upon his own works (and there is no other alternative), and Christ is not in fact...separated from sinners.

Both of which are clearly in error.

Why does God call infants who were sacrificed to idols MY CHILDREN in Eze 16:21?

This has been discussed a number of times so far, I believe, but I will explain my understanding, and you can judge. I just ask that you give this understanding consideration, and tell me that it is not probable:


Ezekial 16

20Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,

21That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

First, would God not consider the children of His created people...His?

Second, look at the original language, and see that while I think justified, "unto me" is implied, not a direct translation.

Third, the chapter clarifies that it is Israel in view:


Ezekiel 16

3And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.


To conclude that this means they are in spiritual union with God, or have the life of God not only denies the context of the very passage, it denies clear statement to the contrary.

It is because of their sin they are rebuked, so to use this to deny man is born with a nature separated from God will just not hold up under scrutiny.

If we are born in sin, children of wrath and of the devil, how could God call these infants "my children"?

See above.

Why does 1 Pet 2:25 say we were as sheep going astray, but are now RETURNED to Jesus? How can you return to Jesus if you were born separated from him in sin at birth?

Answer those questions.

I have also replied to this. This is what really denigrates good discussion, having to address the same issues over and over.

Look up lost sheep, and determine whether Israel was wandering around having forgotten their addresses. I don't have time to speak more on this right now, but in short, all of mankind has returned to God through Christ.

Wiman, your line of questioning is right on, and your logic consistent with truth. :thumbsup:

My question to Darrell would be this. Do spiritually dead men have spiritual insight?

No. While they can read commentaries and present a good front, it does not preclude that the lost cannot give an appearance of being born again.

But, the conclusions they arrive at can be seen to be in disagreement with scripture, as it usually involves a central focus upon just a few doctrines, rather than a sound overview of the teaching of scripture.

If so, how can that be? If not, where does it say that all from birth have no spiritual insight?

Paul makes it clear:

2 Corinthians 2

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


Usually thought to describe heaven, rather the glorious truth to be found here is the redemption of man through Christ, and specifically PAul makes it clear the indwelling presence of God:


10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

He has revealed by that which was mystery before, which is, the New Covenant blessings associated with salvation in Christ, not how wonderful heaven will be when we die.

It is by the indwelling Spirit of God by which we understand these things. Before we have the Spirit of God, which most will admit occurs at salvation, and a result of the New Birth, we cannot, as Paul teaches here...understand.


11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


"No man" can understand the things of God except by the Spirit of God.

"No man" has the Spirit of God until saved.

"No man" therefore, can have "spiritual insight."


12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


Two "spirits" contrasted here: of the world (that which is natural); of God, that which...


9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


Back up one verse from here and we see that it is the death of Christ that was a mystery to the natural man, for if they had had "spiritual insight," they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory...Christ.



13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


Man's wisdom, his "spiritual insight" is contrasted with the wisdom taught by the Holy Spirit. At this point man can compare "spiritual things with spiritual things," whereas in his natural condition...he could not.



14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


And here again we see the state, the condition, of natural man. He that has not received teh Spirit of God, that has not received Christ.

So to answer the question, no, natural man, while he can parrot the commentary of those who may or may not have been saved, cannot have a true "spiritual insight" concerning the things of God, or spiritual things.

God bless.

 

[glfredrick]

I presume that most, if not all, of us have either been parents or have been part of a family where we had occasion to witness newborn infants grow into life.

Which family strives to instruct their newborn infant in the art of sin? Certainly some evil families do so (I know some who have -- they are avowed Satan worshipers who do the most vile acts) but for the most part families simple DO NOT instruct their infant children in the art of sin.

Yet, we find these infant children sinning on their own without prompting. In fact, one of the primary tasks of the family system is to instruct children in the morals of their culture so as to instruct them and train them OUT OF their inherited sin nature. This is common among all human beings on the earth.

I know that what I just shared is in the nature of testimony or anecdotal evidence and that I have not shared a single Bible verse, but what I just shared matches what the Scriptures say about we humans. From "train up a child in the way he should go..." to "we are dead in our sin and tresspasses..." to "the man who says he has no sin is a liar..." we find these same concepts that we SEE in everyday life right in our own homes and children (and in our own lives) are in fact the ones expressed in Scripture by our Creator God who knows more about us than we do about ourselves.

That anyone can yet hold that we are born in a sinless state, or that we might "potentially" be able to live a life of righteousness enough to inherit glory without the atonement of Christ is only more proof that that one is yet in his or her sin of rebellion and separation from God and needs Christ.

I, like Martin Luther, can speak no other message, for I respond to a Higher Authority than the moderators of this board. I take my stand on the Scriptures and on God and cannot say otherwise.

 

[Moriah]

Cornelius was not a Jew, but a Centurian, an excluded Gentile, excluded from citizenship in Israel and as a Gentile, he is a foreigner to the covenants of the promise. The scriptures say Cornelius and his whole family were devout and God-fearing. How could this be true about Cornelius and his whole family if God did not yet save them and cause them to be such ways? Calvinists say no one can do anything right towards God until God saves them first!

Cornelius believed in God, feared God, and was devout, see Acts 10:1-2. Though he was a Gentile, see Acts 11:1. Gentiles were excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, see Colossians 1:4-6. God did not save Cornelius yet, not until he heard the message, see Acts 11:14. Did you see that? GOD DID NOT SAVE CORNELIUS UNTILL HE HEARD THE MESSAGE. SO MUCH FOR CALVINISTS SAYING ONE MUST BE SAVED FIRST AND BORN AGAIN BEFORE BEING ABLE TO BELIEVE.

How is it that we can show scripture to Lutherans and Calvinists that their beliefs on total depravity are false, but they just continue as if they did not hear or see?
Acts 10:34-35 34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Did you see that? Peter realizes how true it is THAT GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVORITISM BUT ACCEPTS FROM EVERY NATION THE ONE WHO FEARS HIM AND DOES WHAT IS RIGHT.
Calvinists surely teach that God shows favoritism, favoritism to some sinners and not other sinners for no reason but just because. Calvinists say no man can fear God and do right without first being born again and the Holy Spirit causes them to believe, Calvinism goes against the words of God, for the word of God does not say what Calvinists say.
Read Luke 7. There was a man, he was NOT a Jew, but rather he was a Centurian, a Roman Gentile. The Jews said to Jesus that the Centurian man DESERVES to have Jesus heal someone for him. The Centurian was not even a Jew! Yet Jesus said concerning the Centurian, that he had not found SUCH GREAT FAITH EVEN IN ISRAEL. How could the Centurian man have faith yet? According to Calvinists, faith only comes AFTER Jesus saves a person and they become born again. GOD HAD NOT YET ALLOWED NON-JEWS, GENTILES, TO HAVE SALVATION YET.
1 When Jesus had finished saying all this to the people who were listening, he entered Capernaum. 2 There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

 

[glfredrick]

Calvinists say no one can do anything right towards God until God saves them first!

No, they do not...

You misunderstand what Calvinists believe which drives your other errors below.

People can do all sorts of works, good, bad, evil, godly, but NONE of their WORKS are of any effect on their salvation.

THAT is what Calvinists believe. Get that right and you will have a more complete and accurate understanding of what Calvinists believe.

How is it that we can show scripture to Lutherans and Calvinists that their beliefs on total depravity are false, but they just continue as if they did not hear or see?

The more one relies on exegesis of Scripture for the basis of their doctrines RATHER THAN an argument against a particular theological view, the more one will see that God is indeed God and that we are indeed not God.

Because the Scriptures are very plain concerning the lack of ability for a human being to be without sin.

Calvinists surely teach that God shows favoritism, favoritism to some sinners and not other sinners for no reason but just because.

Calvinists SURELY do not. They DO say that God RIGHTLY has dominion over His creation and that He DID elect before the foundations of the world. That is God's domain and He has the right, privelege, and ability to do whatsoever He deems JUST and RIGHTEOUS in that regard.

To involk a term like "favoritism" to God is both blasphemy and heretical. No one, Calvinist or not, can do so without having a total disregard for the simple fact that God is God and we are not.

Calvinists are also certain that when all is seen clearly, i.e., when we are in the presence of God (remember that pesky little verse, "every knee will bow and every tongue confess...") that they will acceed to God His perfect justice and holiness and they will equally agree that God was ABSOLUTELY correct in His assessment of all things. How else can it be? Are we to say that it is even remotely possible for God to be in error? God forbid that we even harbor that concept. Yet time and again, sinful human beings rebel against Holy God and create all sorts of false religious ideas about the self-worth of humanity to approach and yes, even manipulate the hand of God. They are, in essence, saying that God can and does make a mistake, but we are good enough to correct Him. I shudder at that thought... God be merciful to such sinners!

Calvinists say no man can fear God and do right without first being born again and the Holy Spirit causes them to believe, Calvinism goes against the words of God, for the word of God does not say what Calvinists say.

Again, we do not ascribe UTTER worthlessness to works done before one is indeed justified before Holy God. We simply say that those works do not avail us any traction regarding salvation, which is purely of God.

As long as you continue to argue against a stereotype and strawman Calvinism you will gain no ground, for you are arguing against something that does not exist in truth.

Read Luke 7. There was a man, he was NOT a Jew, but rather he was a Centurian, a Roman Gentile. The Jews said to Jesus that the Centurian man DESERVES to have Jesus heal someone for him. The Centurian was not even a Jew! Yet Jesus said concerning the Centurian, that he had not found SUCH GREAT FAITH EVEN IN ISRAEL. How could the Centurian man have faith yet? According to Calvinists, faith only comes AFTER Jesus saves a person and they become born again.

That is indeed what the Scriptures say... The Scriptures also record Jonah being elected by God to speak a word of repentance to the people of Ninevah, and they did indeed repent and fall on their faces before Holy God. Would you, by way of your incorrect illustration of what is happening in Scripture disavow what God did with Gentile non-believers?

In fact, as I recall, Abram (before God renamed him and made him the father of the Jewish people) was called out by God while he was yet a pagan in the city of Ur.

In fact, when the Jerusalem Council was called into session to deal with the issue of Gentile salvation and the coming of the Holy Spirit to what (then) was seen as an unclean, un-savable people, the Counsil acting under the guidance of the Holy Spirit returned to the Noahic Covenant as the guidelines for God's actions with said Gentiles (us, for the most part).

So, God seemed to have a plan that He was working out for the "whole world" including Gentiles like Cornelius, and seeing as how salvation is by God alone, what God did in the heart of Cornelius is God's business, not ours to use and manipulate to divide God's actions as seen in the Scriptures!

GOD HAD NOT YET ALLOWED NON-JEWS, GENTILES, TO HAVE SALVATION YET.

See above, where I refuted this entirely with a few words.

 

[glfredrick]

I am waiting for those with all the human-centered answers to deal with my several questions listed above.

:thumbs:

 

[Moriah]

No, they do not...

You misunderstand what Calvinists believe which drives your other errors below.

People can do all sorts of works, good, bad, evil, godly, but NONE of their WORKS are of any effect on their salvation.

THAT is what Calvinists believe. Get that right and you will have a more complete and accurate understanding of what Calvinists believe.

Whom do you think you are kidding? Calvinists believe that no one can even have FAITH in God without first God giving them the Holy Spirit! You need to get that right and then you will have a more complete and accurate understanding of the lies you follow. Lutherans also believe that too, it is called TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Say WHAT GLF?? Listen to an 'orthodox' and highly touted Calvinistic father.


Whitfield: "I can say that I cannot pray but I sin — I cannot preach to you or any others but I sin — I can do nothing without sin; and, as one expresseth it, my repentance wants to be repented of, and my tears to be washed in the precious blood of my dear Redeemer. Our best duties are as so many splendid sins."

 

[Moriah]

The more one relies on exegesis of Scripture for the basis of their doctrines RATHER THAN an argument against a particular theological view, the more one will see that God is indeed God and that we are indeed not God.
Because the Scriptures are very plain concerning the lack of ability for a human being to be without sin.

[QUOTE/]

Do you mean the one who relies only on the word of God is in error? LOL


[QUOTE/] Calvinists SURELY do not. They DO say that God RIGHTLY has dominion over His creation and that He DID elect before the foundations of the world. That is God's domain and He has the right, privelege, and ability to do whatsoever He deems JUST and RIGHTEOUS in that regard. [QUOTE/]


I know what Calvinists believe. Calvinists believe that God for no reason known, made humans without the capability to believe, and then saved some for no known reason, while making some for Hell for no reason or fault of their own.

[QUOTE/]To involk a term like "favoritism" to God is both blasphemy and heretical. No one, Calvinist or not, can do so without having a total disregard for the simple fact that God is God and we are not.[QUOTE/]

Calvinism is full of false doctrines. I have shown that clearly.

[QUOTE/]Calvinists are also certain that when all is seen clearly, i.e., when we are in the presence of God (remember that pesky little verse, "every knee will bow and every tongue confess...") that they will acceed to God His perfect justice and holiness and they will equally agree that God was ABSOLUTELY correct in His assessment of all things. How else can it be? Are we to say that it is even remotely possible for God to be in error? [QUOTE/]

NO, YOU are in error.

[QUOTE/] God forbid that we even harbor that concept. Yet time and again, sinful human beings rebel against Holy God and create all sorts of false religious ideas about the self-worth of humanity to approach and yes, even manipulate the hand of God. They are, in essence, saying that God can and does make a mistake, but we are good enough to correct Him. I shudder at that thought... God be merciful to such sinners![QUOTE/]

You would rather pretend that people are calling God into question, rather than question your own beliefs!


[QUOTE/] As long as you continue to argue against a stereotype and strawman Calvinism you will gain no ground, for you are arguing against something that does not exist in truth.[QUOTE/]

This is almost funny. You are the one with the straw man tactics.


[QUOTE/]That is indeed what the Scriptures say... The Scriptures also record Jonah being elected by God to speak a word of repentance to the people of Ninevah, and they did indeed repent and fall on their faces before Holy God. Would you, by way of your incorrect illustration of what is happening in Scripture disavow what God did with Gentile non-believers?[QUOTE/]

According to Calvinists, God had to make them born again before they could submit! Your beliefs go against so many scriptures it is horrific.


[QUOTE/]So, God seemed to have a plan that He was working out for the "whole world" including Gentiles like Cornelius, and seeing as how salvation is by God alone, what God did in the heart of Cornelius is God's business, not ours to use and manipulate to divide God's actions as seen in the Scriptures!
[QUOTE/]

When you say things, such as what you say here, THAT IS ADDING TO THE SCRIPTURES BELIEFS THAT ARE NOT THERE! YOU ADD TO GOD’S WORD WHEN YOU SAY THAT. GOD SAYS NOT TO ADD TO HIS WORD! YOU ARE IN TERRIBLE ERROR.

 

[glfredrick]

Whom do you think you are kidding? Calvinists believe that no one can even have FAITH in God without first God giving them the Holy Spirit! You need to get that right and then you will have a more complete and accurate understanding of the lies you follow. Lutherans also believe that too, it is called TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

So do Presbyterians, Baptists, and, yes, Arminians, Wesleyans, Methodists, Anglicans, and just about everyone else in the church world.

I find it interesting that SOME GROUPS of Baptists have turned to Pelagian or semi-Pelagian soteriology in their quest to make sure that "whosoever wills" is true. Only Pelagians and semi-Pelagians depend on the actions of human agents to move the hand of God.

But let's say that a man does indeed "will" to believe in God. So what? Must God accept that will of man? Is He sitting there on His throne, wringing His hands, saying, "Oh, I sure do hope that one comes to Me..."? I doubt it. That is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible does indeed gift us, yes, even with faith to believe.

Silly man... We cannot even know that God exists unless He initiates the encounter.

So, we agree that without God salvation is impossible, or would you disagree with that statement?

And we agree that Calvinists believe that God grants the faith to belive (so do Arminians).

So where do we go from here? Do you understand what the term "total depravity" means? It is certainly not what you are describing...