Penal Substitution

I simply do not believe that God did away with our free will after the fall; I think it was damaged but not destroyed. That's one belief that keeps me out of Calvinism.

 

No, no, mandym, I didn't accuse you of calling me that. I was simply stating that I was not a universalist because of that belief.

 

Because I figured some would infer that I was, and I wanted to dispel the notion before it got started. There's enough argument and heat going on already.

 

Michael,

The CAC Celtic Anabaptist, from the website, gives me the impression that it is somewhat of New (young) perspective. How long has this been around? Do you have churches (fellowships) in MS? I had never heard of such prior to your posting. Does CAC, (you) affirm or reject the Nicence Creed?

 

I "went there", Michael, and found that you are "the founder and presiding minister" (elsewhere on the site, "Archbishop") of the Celtic Anabaptist Communion. (That is just a statement of fact, not a personal attack ).

I also found the following:

The CAC is neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant but rather we adhere to a "third way" -- that of the Anabaptists, Quakers or Friends, and Celtic Christians.
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Without wishing to derail the thread, I must say that my (albeit far from complete!) knowledge of Anabaptists, Quakers, and "Celtic Christians" does not lead me to think of those three groupings as being even close to heterogeneous in belief/practice.

 

Whoops! Used the wrong word - Sorry!!

Sorry, I made a mistake. The bolded word in the quote from my previous post should have been "homogenous". My apologies for that "senior moment" :laugh: .

 

Yes, we are young -- about eight years old. We had a fellowship in MS, but the pastor had to retire for health reasons.

For some reason, the majority of our members/ministers seem to be from the Appalachian region presently.

We would affirm the Nicene Creed, but I prefer the Apostles Creed simply because it is an older statement than the Nicene Creed and simpler. I prefer and affirm teachings that are the most ancient -- scripture, and those closest to the times of the apostles; that would include the fathers.

My vision is to maintain liberty and equality while avoiding extremes of the right or left. And of course to hold to the views of the Celtic Christians, Baptists/Anabaptists, and others of spiritual kinship.

I don't agree with OSAS, but I wouldn't exclude someone for believing it. Heck, my mom strongly believes it; we have gone around and around on the issue.

 

That's quite alright; I understand.

I believe the Celts, Quakers, and Anabaptists/General Baptists are close in their views of God, man, and salvation.

 

Do you deny the verbal plenary inspiration of the original manuscripts than?

That it did contain errors/mistakes in it?

What contridictions do you see in the OT?

 

I don't know if I can state my view of scripture in a brief way. I have trouble applying the words "inerrant" and "infallible" to anyone but God. In the same way, I have trouble applying the word "Reverend" to a human being.

I wouldn't say that the OT had errors or mistakes; I think "some" parts of the OT represent a primitive people's unclear but searching concept of God. For instance, I don't think God ordered the extermination of children; that is inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus.

Also, I give more validity to the teachings of the OT prophets than to the priests because the prophets taught the true way for us to relate to God and how He relates to us -- not through ritual or outward things, but through and by the Spirit.

As for the New Testament, these kinds of "problems" don't exist, because we have the clear example of Jesus to go by -- Jesus, the perfect picture and example of the character and nature of God, and the author and finisher of our faith. You can't go wrong following the teachings and example of Jesus!

 

Apparently you only see Jesus as the lamb of God, the meek and humble servant sent to save man from sin. That's how He came the first time. But the next time He comes, He will come as judge and ruler.

Revelation 19:11-21 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Maybe you should take a closer look at Him.

 

So you think that when He comes the second time that He will be murdering children?

 

God doesn't murder.

 

Oh, so you don't believe the Old Testament either, then. :laugh:

 

God gives life and God has the authority to take it because He is sovereign. He does not murder. Humans murder. Is it easily explainable? No. But God is good and there is no evil in Him.

 

I can agree with you on that. And that's why I know that God didn't order the extermination of children in the OT.

 

Jesus quoted the OT many times. He obviously believed it to be God's inspired word. Are you saying Jesus was wrong to believe that? Especially considering that Jesus was/is God Himself? I think He would know if the OT was true or not.

 

Tell me where he affirmed and approved of the extermination of children.