The concept of the Elect.

Hi Mark, I will offer my point by point rebuttal in a later post, but had to immediately respond to this from you:


I get your point - wasn't able to answer it. Maybe someone else can.

I just wanted to say thankyou from my heart. Someone with your committment to honesty is rare, you may be one of a kind.

 

Reply to Misrepresentation:

God elected a target group, those His Redeemer would redeem, when He elected His Redeemer, therefore He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. Who would the Redeemer redeem? Those whose faith in Christ God credits as righteousness, which is according to His own will and sovereign choice.

Calvinism cannot be defended without (1) ad hominems, (2) misrepresentations of opponents views (3) redefining words to alter scripture or (4) misunderstanding or misrepresenting the underlying Greek grammar.

In the quoted post we get a number 2.

 

I do not recall a rebuttal to this point, people are called before they are chosen individually. And those called but not chosen lacked something the King was looking for. Hence, this parable teaches an individual conditional election during our lifetime after we are called by the gospel.

 

This appears to be a rebuttal to my view of Matthew 13:1-30

Lets see if we can apply or clarify the principle of many are called but few are chosen. Yes, the call, the seed is presented to all four soils. But only three understand it. Of the three that understand it, all were drawn to Christ by God's lovingkindness, for this is love that He died for us while we were yet sinners. But although the second soil only received the gospel superficially, he liked what it offered in benefits, the second soil did not make a heart felt commitment and so when the going got tough, he fell away. And the third soil also understood, was drawn, received and even made a heart felt commitment but Jesus just became one of the third soils priorities, for he kept other treasures in his heart as well and those other treasures choked out the commitment to Christ. But the four soil understood, was drawn, received, made a heart felt commitment, and tossed out every hindrance in his heart to picking up his cross and following Jesus. So only this one of four soils after being called, was chosen.

As far as internal/external lets say they had different life experiences, the first soil having hardened his heart such that he could not even understand the gospel, but for the others, the internal reception of the gospel differed such as (soil number 2) what can I get out of it; (soil number 3) how can I fit this in with my other priorities, and (soil number 4) how can I serve Christ alone in a manner worthy of Christ.

As to the will, the first soil had willfully hardened his heart, but did not understand the gospel so there was no willful rejection. The second soil willed to be saved but salvation does not depend on the man who wills (Romans 9:6) and the third soil not only willed to be saved, he ran some by way of commitment, but his commitment was not whole hearted, he still treasured some things of this world. And the forth soil not only willed and ran, but with his whole heart and this is the faith of the few who are chosen, for God credited his faith as righteousness.

 

Yes, the tense puts God's choice in the past, but how far in the past, i.e during the lifetime of the chosen or before creation, is left open by the grammar. But the context, chosen as weak or foolish according to a human perspective requires that the election be during the lifetime of the one chosen. I believe the reason for the lack of a specific time is that they were not all chosen at the same time, for they are thinking about the group and when various members of the group were individually chosen.

As for the underlying Greek, my interlinear says the verb is in the aortist tense which indicates something is a done deal in the past, i.e. God has chosen the weak to shame the strong.

 

First, I edited my post to change "conceptually" to "corporately". You are correct, in that my view of Ephesians 1:4 refers to God electing us corporately, i.e as a target group, rather than as foreseen individuals. We will sidestep the issue of whether foreseen individuals are concepts.

No, I have carefully studied every passage that addresses election so that includes Ephesians 1:5. When God established His redemption plan, before the foundation of the world, it included the idea that those chosen would then be predestined to be adopted physically as children of God. Adoption is the term Paul uses to refer to our ultimate sanctification when we are raised in glorified bodies, rather than referring to our being born anew. So, in my view, everyone who is born anew is sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to our predestined adoption, see Romans 8:23

 

Reply to Amy,

The close of the parable says many are called but few are chosen. Therefore the rejection indicates not being chosen for cause. So logically with the calling occurring during our lifetime, then the choosing does too because it comes after the calling according to this parable.